Genesis 32:24-30 KJV

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name.

And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

    • Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.comOPEnglish
      24·
      2 months ago

      IT DOES NOT!

      Hence the question marks! I would love your take on this passage!

      Seeing as “God is a spirit and hath not a body like a man”, as it says in the children’s catechism, it is interesting that Jacob was able to wrestle with him in such a physical manner.

      How would you explain this?

      • unmagical@lemmy.mlEnglish
        32·
        2 months ago

        If the passage doesn’t mention JC then it’s probably not about JC. A mid 19th century post hoc explanation of the trinity isn’t going to actually change that.

        • Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.comOPEnglish
          14·
          2 months ago

          That’s a very unreformed/uninformed answer! There are many places in the New Testament where the writers very clearly state that an Old Testament passage was referring to Jesus Christ, even though those passage don’t mention Jesus Christ by name. The New Testament is absolutely brimming with them. Way before the 19th century, and way too many to account for by irresponsibly throwing out the word “edits” so don’t try that

          • unmagical@lemmy.mlEnglish
            23·
            2 months ago

            You’re quipping about making stuff up while supporting a book whose primary evidence for taking it remotely seriously is itself?

            The count of occurrences isn’t evidence of authenticity or truthfulness.

            • Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.comOPEnglish
              31·
              2 months ago

              I don’t know what you mean about “authenticity,” but between Homer’s writings, Plato’s writings, and the Bible (OT & NT separately) the NT has:

              • best manuscript quality
              • earliest complete manuscripts relative to composition

              And the OT and NT together have:

              • most archaeological verification

              This when compared to the works of Plato & Homer (we don’t need to mention Socrates because he doesn’t have any written work preserved at all). They are as authentic, and moreso in some areas, as any ancient writing.

              As to truthfulness, I’ve already spoken archaeologically, but referring to the spiritual content, I wouldn’t presume to convince you.

              This is Reformed Theology. There is a passage in Romans 9 that is very unpopular these days, but we embrace it. It goes like this:

              Romans 9:11-18 NIV

              Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

              Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

              What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

              For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

              Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

              I do want you to know, I hope God has mercy on you. Along with Paul,

              I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe.

              Ephesians 1:18-19a NIV

            • Flax@feddit.ukEnglish
              21·
              2 months ago

              By your logic, most historical document’s primary evidence for taking it remotely seriously is “itself”.