There are THREE sides in the trans debate (besides not interested in it).
You are either pro trans rights, anti trans rights, or a russian bot sent here to pretend to be one of those previous two and drag the debate into the sewer as much as possible.
I think the issue is that you’re out here having opinions on trans people/issues when you don’t really know that much about the topic at all. I mean, you’ve got “the surgery” and “transgenderism” in your post history, and you’re arguing in favor of keeping trans women out of women’s restrooms. A lot of what you say is just kind of casually transphobic in like an ignorant way, but I feel like you probably don’t mean to contribute to bigotry, right? I wish I had some reading material I could recommend. Check if your local library has a rainbow shelf?
Your post is a perfect example of why some think this is a binary issue - generally it’s an age thing, you don’t develop an understanding of nuance until you’re older.
Nah, I’ve seen some be completely mental and threaten to burn down their GP or be absolutely unhinged. I’ve also seen people be unhinged and want them to kill themselves. It’s madness.
You can find unhinged crazies on both sides of just about any argument. It shouldn’t really affect what you think of the subject matter at hand anyway tbh.
You have not seen people trying to burn down their GP. Quit making shit up.
As for being suicidal… That sounds like a pretty good reason to give people access to the medical care they actually need.
Imagine for a minute that you are a man and were in a car accident. During this accident your dick was cut off.
Surgical techniques exist to reattach your dick but the law says you must now live as a woman. You find a doctor who is willing to reattach your penis, something that you don’t have an infinite amount of time to do because it’s rapidly becoming a non-viable penis.
Suddenly, some asshole goes on television and says that people who want to have their penises reattached are pedophiles and any doctor who helps them is a monster. They put your picture on the news, they tell everybody that you’re trying to pretend you’re not a woman now.
How much of that do you think you need to put up with before you get pretty fucking pissed off?
Who’s insane here? Who’s acting irrationally? Who is the aggressor?
I’m a bog standard model of human male but I think if I were put in that situation I’d be weighing the value of the life of a person who would deny me my own body.
I don’t necessarily have anything against sex reassignment surgery. It’s a person’s body, and if it’s what medical experts think is best for their immediate mental wellbeing, then I think it’s fair, although should be a last resort as it’s permanent.
I am aware some people do get the sex reassignment surgery and it doesn’t help them, turns out it was a different problem and they just persuaded themselves that it would be what would fix their problem (which occasionally is other traumas or underlying self hatred). I’ve also known people who’ve pulled out of transitioning due to them realising it wasn’t the solution to their problem.
I’ve also seen people who’ve tried everything, tried to live a normal life, but the dysphoria also got them down.
I do think there should be research done into seeing if there is a cure or therapies for gender dysphoria, and use sex changes as a last resort. but right now, sex changes appear to be one of the most effective options if someone is truly experiencing dysphoria. But again, they should have everything else ruled out first (instead of the headcase that I referenced in the video above, sounds like she first self diagnosed online, started self treating, THEN went to her GP demanding further treatment for an illness they hadn’t even been diagnosed with. That’s like the time I had symptoms of anaemia and people were suggesting I skip the GP and get iron tablets, when it turned out to be a folate deficiency, because I went to a GP)
I’m aware of the arguments for and against the trans debate. I’ve been often changing my opinions on it, back and forth. But I hate the climate around it where you have to conform to a specific viewpoint or get labelled as a “bigot”.
To both sides, what I’d say: If you believe me to be a monster for not 100% agreeing with you, then just conclude that I’m a monster already. I’m sick of playing these games, trying to change my opinion to appease others. I’d rather we would focus on supporting people and preserving life and what’s best for them.
I do think there should be research done into seeing if there is a cure or therapies for gender dysphoria, and use sex changes as a last resort.
but right now, sex changes appear to be one of the most effective options if someone is truly experiencing dysphoria. But again, they should have everything else ruled out first
The most effective (and reversible) treatment should be a last resort, because you think that people aren’t truly experiencing dysphoria, and even if they are everything else needs to be ruled out first.
the video you cite is someone who is impoverished and unwell dealing with a system that is intentionally disfunctional and has clearly been overreacting making threats that aren’t even really actionable considering how poor they are. Having a mental health condition exacerbated by poverty and a disfunctional healthcare system doesn’t mean your other conditions aren’t real.
Broadly speaking being gender nonconforming is more likely to cause you to end up in poverty simply because your bigoted family might just cut all support from you and leave you to fend for yourself with a hostile system. having to live in poverty and not even able to get medical care then exacerbates pretty much every underlying mental health issue regardless of gender.
Sex change operations carry permanent effects. They aren’t reversible like puberty blockers. A simple google search will teach you that. This is where emotion and agenda contradicts medical fact. If somebody isn’t actually experiencing dysphoria, then they shouldn’t get a sex change. It needs to be confirmed that they actually are experiencing dysphoria and not self conscious like some people I know have been, including myself, and thus thinking a different gender identity is the solution when it isn’t. At one point in my life I wanted my nose removed.
A family kicking someone out for having gender identity issues is disgusting and not okay.
Can you clarify what ‘sex change operations’ is intended to refer to, are you calling every step of gender affirming care ‘sex change operations’ or is something like hormones distinct in your mind?
The effects of going on hormones is largely reversible, surgery obviously less so.
The reality is vast majority of the people who do de-transition do so because of familial or social pressures, often social coercion. That’s not to discount that there are ones who have some misdiagnosis leading them to pursue care that they didn’t want. I just don’t see how arbitrarily limiting care for everyone else solves this perceived issue other than via effective austerity- not allowing anyone to have care.
You’ve actually seen trans people, in person, threaten to burn down a surgery building? I doubt this.
As for people being suicidal, that’s a known problem which happens as a result of being trans in a country that wants to deny them support, which is exactly why trans people are trying to get recognition in the first place. Denying that isn’t exactly going to make their mental health any better, and they can’t be blamed for that.
Its hard to take the trans community serious when they are just as bigoted as those they shit on. Extremely aggressive online moderation too in those communities. Theres gotta be a phrase for someone who acts like those they despise.
Because both conservatives and liberals have been fiending to radicalise their bases to extreme levels. Essentially blocking out any attempt of rational thought, and being very exclusive towards any opinions that might even threaten their ideals.
Lemmy attempts to post itself as the “moral good”, the platform against the Nazis, the good guys that benefit all folk, that cannot do anything wrong!
Everyone in this thread is dunking on you because your opinion is disagreeable to their values. Everyone here is just telling you to fuck off, calling you a conservative, saying you’re mad, etc etc. Nobody is trying to critically understand your argument (even though I disagree with it, but that’s another conversation) but instead proceeds to spewing the same bullshit they have done since November.
The truth is, this behaviour is not “keeping nazis out”, its not “being inclusive”, it’s the antithesis of all inclusive behaviour, it’s creating even more Red vs Blue scenarios where we choose everything based on Partisanism. You’re either racist or you kill rich people. You either support white supremacists or terrorists. You completely disregard all logic, to be apart of a garbage culture war with dumbasses on both sides, arguing for their disgusting propaganda.
I don’t agree with your opinion, however I respect that you stand against this mindset that has completely plagued everyone here, that we cannot challenge anything that goes against the ideals of the Fediverse. You, right here, have created a case study, an experience, a conversation on why this community is fundamentally flawed. Your experiences are disregarded, you are told to leave this community for your opinions, meanwhile people wonder “Why is half the country Nazis?”
To anyone who isn’t Flax reading this thread, you are free to downvote it and call me a fascist or whatever. Just know that this behaviour is only negatively affecting YOU. Your behaviour will not free marginalised people. Your behaviour will not make people adopt the Fediverse. Your behaviour is disgusting, immoral, void of logic and immature. Until you realize that, you will be in a perpetual cycle of unhappiness and insecurity wondering why you only agree with people who have been radicalised the same way as you.
Why is it expected that everybody sits in an echo chamber these days?
Because if they’re not in an echo chamber, they cannot survive.
Everyone in this thread is dunking on you because your opinion is disagreeable to their values
It’s because they’re denying people basic human rights, not a simple disagreement
Nobody is trying to critically understand your argument
There isn’t any logic to it, so this is an impossible waste of time
The truth is, this behaviour is not “keeping nazis out”,
Objectively less Nazis here than places that don’t allow proper treatment of them, so wrong there
its not “being inclusive”, it’s the antithesis of all inclusive behaviour
Learn about the paradox of intolerance, you’re way behind the rest of the class here
however I respect that you stand against this mindset that has completely plagued everyone here, that we cannot challenge anything that goes against the ideals of the Fediverse
“I respect open transphobia based on ignorance” fuck off, scum
Thank you for your kind words. I’m not even trying to necessarily change people’s minds or expect people to agree with me. IRL, everyone around me is pretty conservative. I come on here to balance that out, and see how people would respond and answer their talking points. Sometimes I do actually correct my peers IRL when they have misconceptions gained from their echo chamber, because of something I learned on here. I respect everyone here regardless of opinion. And what I find is what pushes a lot of people I know IRL away is militantism - whether people like it or not. When I was growing up, I was sucked into a right-wing rabbit hole, originally just because I felt that right wing people were more considerate and respectful of what I had to say. I then realised a lot of what they were saying was very untrue, but I couldn’t fit in with other communities either as they were upset when I wasn’t singing from the same hymn sheet as them. I appreciate you and everyone who engages with me in a civil manner.
I’d rather not. Most people around me IRL are conservative. This place is where I get another perspective. If you want another person in this country just voting for whatever farage is saying, then I’ll go to Facebook.
I just see stupid and crazy people on both sides at this point tbh
Oh yes the both sides argument…
I can see how all of those trans people are offending you with their… Checks notes… Desire to exist.
Truly we live in a mad world.
deleted by creator
There are THREE sides in the trans debate (besides not interested in it).
You are either pro trans rights, anti trans rights, or a russian bot sent here to pretend to be one of those previous two and drag the debate into the sewer as much as possible.
hey some of us are Russian bots who just happen to be trans, rather than for nefarious reasons
будь осторожен, Сергей, ты раскроешь наше прикрытие
The pro trans rights crowd calls me “anti trans rights” or a “bigot” and the anti trans rights crowd calls me “pro trans rights” or a “groomer”
I think the issue is that you’re out here having opinions on trans people/issues when you don’t really know that much about the topic at all. I mean, you’ve got “the surgery” and “transgenderism” in your post history, and you’re arguing in favor of keeping trans women out of women’s restrooms. A lot of what you say is just kind of casually transphobic in like an ignorant way, but I feel like you probably don’t mean to contribute to bigotry, right? I wish I had some reading material I could recommend. Check if your local library has a rainbow shelf?
I like to learn but also give my current perspective and where I’m at. People are free to change my mind if they like to challenge it.
You’re just a bigot, and like all bigots, an idiot as well.
Case in point.
Your post is a perfect example of why some think this is a binary issue - generally it’s an age thing, you don’t develop an understanding of nuance until you’re older.
Nah, I’ve seen some be completely mental and threaten to burn down their GP or be absolutely unhinged. I’ve also seen people be unhinged and want them to kill themselves. It’s madness.
You can find unhinged crazies on both sides of just about any argument. It shouldn’t really affect what you think of the subject matter at hand anyway tbh.
Makes it hard to figure out who to listen to tbh.
the only argument that matters: let people live their lives however they like as long as it doesn’t impact anyone else
trans rights fit this absolutely perfectly
Listen to the real arguments and ignore the crazies?
Who have the real arguments and who are the crazies
You have not seen people trying to burn down their GP. Quit making shit up.
As for being suicidal… That sounds like a pretty good reason to give people access to the medical care they actually need.
Imagine for a minute that you are a man and were in a car accident. During this accident your dick was cut off.
Surgical techniques exist to reattach your dick but the law says you must now live as a woman. You find a doctor who is willing to reattach your penis, something that you don’t have an infinite amount of time to do because it’s rapidly becoming a non-viable penis.
Suddenly, some asshole goes on television and says that people who want to have their penises reattached are pedophiles and any doctor who helps them is a monster. They put your picture on the news, they tell everybody that you’re trying to pretend you’re not a woman now.
How much of that do you think you need to put up with before you get pretty fucking pissed off?
Who’s insane here? Who’s acting irrationally? Who is the aggressor?
I’m a bog standard model of human male but I think if I were put in that situation I’d be weighing the value of the life of a person who would deny me my own body.
How about you quit gaslighting me?
I don’t necessarily have anything against sex reassignment surgery. It’s a person’s body, and if it’s what medical experts think is best for their immediate mental wellbeing, then I think it’s fair, although should be a last resort as it’s permanent.
I am aware some people do get the sex reassignment surgery and it doesn’t help them, turns out it was a different problem and they just persuaded themselves that it would be what would fix their problem (which occasionally is other traumas or underlying self hatred). I’ve also known people who’ve pulled out of transitioning due to them realising it wasn’t the solution to their problem.
I’ve also seen people who’ve tried everything, tried to live a normal life, but the dysphoria also got them down.
I do think there should be research done into seeing if there is a cure or therapies for gender dysphoria, and use sex changes as a last resort. but right now, sex changes appear to be one of the most effective options if someone is truly experiencing dysphoria. But again, they should have everything else ruled out first (instead of the headcase that I referenced in the video above, sounds like she first self diagnosed online, started self treating, THEN went to her GP demanding further treatment for an illness they hadn’t even been diagnosed with. That’s like the time I had symptoms of anaemia and people were suggesting I skip the GP and get iron tablets, when it turned out to be a folate deficiency, because I went to a GP)
I’m aware of the arguments for and against the trans debate. I’ve been often changing my opinions on it, back and forth. But I hate the climate around it where you have to conform to a specific viewpoint or get labelled as a “bigot”.
To both sides, what I’d say: If you believe me to be a monster for not 100% agreeing with you, then just conclude that I’m a monster already. I’m sick of playing these games, trying to change my opinion to appease others. I’d rather we would focus on supporting people and preserving life and what’s best for them.
The most effective (and reversible) treatment should be a last resort, because you think that people aren’t truly experiencing dysphoria, and even if they are everything else needs to be ruled out first.
the video you cite is someone who is impoverished and unwell dealing with a system that is intentionally disfunctional and has clearly been overreacting making threats that aren’t even really actionable considering how poor they are. Having a mental health condition exacerbated by poverty and a disfunctional healthcare system doesn’t mean your other conditions aren’t real.
Broadly speaking being gender nonconforming is more likely to cause you to end up in poverty simply because your bigoted family might just cut all support from you and leave you to fend for yourself with a hostile system. having to live in poverty and not even able to get medical care then exacerbates pretty much every underlying mental health issue regardless of gender.
Sex change operations carry permanent effects. They aren’t reversible like puberty blockers. A simple google search will teach you that. This is where emotion and agenda contradicts medical fact. If somebody isn’t actually experiencing dysphoria, then they shouldn’t get a sex change. It needs to be confirmed that they actually are experiencing dysphoria and not self conscious like some people I know have been, including myself, and thus thinking a different gender identity is the solution when it isn’t. At one point in my life I wanted my nose removed.
A family kicking someone out for having gender identity issues is disgusting and not okay.
Can you clarify what ‘sex change operations’ is intended to refer to, are you calling every step of gender affirming care ‘sex change operations’ or is something like hormones distinct in your mind?
The effects of going on hormones is largely reversible, surgery obviously less so.
The reality is vast majority of the people who do de-transition do so because of familial or social pressures, often social coercion. That’s not to discount that there are ones who have some misdiagnosis leading them to pursue care that they didn’t want. I just don’t see how arbitrarily limiting care for everyone else solves this perceived issue other than via effective austerity- not allowing anyone to have care.
Top and bottom surgery.
I don’t mean limiting care except for where it’s actually unnecessary. Just have enough stringency.
Not even saying we should be more stringent. We might already be stringent enough.
You’ve actually seen trans people, in person, threaten to burn down a surgery building? I doubt this.
As for people being suicidal, that’s a known problem which happens as a result of being trans in a country that wants to deny them support, which is exactly why trans people are trying to get recognition in the first place. Denying that isn’t exactly going to make their mental health any better, and they can’t be blamed for that.
I didn’t see it in person. But I did see it online.
So you claim to have seen evidence.
That trans people come as sane or insane as everyone else.
Not sure you are making any point at all.
I’ve also seen insane trans-critical people as well, with a severe lack of compassion.
I could repost my comment in a conservative group and get the same backlash but for calling people who are critical of transgenderism insane.
As I say. Every group of humanity comes in all levels of mental health.
Non of it makes any difference to this debate. Other then to normalise trans behaviour.
I thought the whole thing with gender dysphoria is that it wasn’t normal?
Uncommon and abnormal are not the same thing.
Something can be rare and still normal.
Maybe we have our definitions in a twist. I wouldn’t define “abnormal” to be negative or derogatory. Just “uncommon”
You give up the game when you call transgender an “ism”
Its hard to take the trans community serious when they are just as bigoted as those they shit on. Extremely aggressive online moderation too in those communities. Theres gotta be a phrase for someone who acts like those they despise.
I’m not good with terminology around these subjects
Go fuck yourself back to Facebook.
Why is it expected that everybody sits in an echo chamber these days?
Because both conservatives and liberals have been fiending to radicalise their bases to extreme levels. Essentially blocking out any attempt of rational thought, and being very exclusive towards any opinions that might even threaten their ideals.
Lemmy attempts to post itself as the “moral good”, the platform against the Nazis, the good guys that benefit all folk, that cannot do anything wrong!
Everyone in this thread is dunking on you because your opinion is disagreeable to their values. Everyone here is just telling you to fuck off, calling you a conservative, saying you’re mad, etc etc. Nobody is trying to critically understand your argument (even though I disagree with it, but that’s another conversation) but instead proceeds to spewing the same bullshit they have done since November.
The truth is, this behaviour is not “keeping nazis out”, its not “being inclusive”, it’s the antithesis of all inclusive behaviour, it’s creating even more Red vs Blue scenarios where we choose everything based on Partisanism. You’re either racist or you kill rich people. You either support white supremacists or terrorists. You completely disregard all logic, to be apart of a garbage culture war with dumbasses on both sides, arguing for their disgusting propaganda.
I don’t agree with your opinion, however I respect that you stand against this mindset that has completely plagued everyone here, that we cannot challenge anything that goes against the ideals of the Fediverse. You, right here, have created a case study, an experience, a conversation on why this community is fundamentally flawed. Your experiences are disregarded, you are told to leave this community for your opinions, meanwhile people wonder “Why is half the country Nazis?”
To anyone who isn’t Flax reading this thread, you are free to downvote it and call me a fascist or whatever. Just know that this behaviour is only negatively affecting YOU. Your behaviour will not free marginalised people. Your behaviour will not make people adopt the Fediverse. Your behaviour is disgusting, immoral, void of logic and immature. Until you realize that, you will be in a perpetual cycle of unhappiness and insecurity wondering why you only agree with people who have been radicalised the same way as you.
Because if they’re not in an echo chamber, they cannot survive.
It’s because they’re denying people basic human rights, not a simple disagreement
There isn’t any logic to it, so this is an impossible waste of time
Objectively less Nazis here than places that don’t allow proper treatment of them, so wrong there
Learn about the paradox of intolerance, you’re way behind the rest of the class here
“I respect open transphobia based on ignorance” fuck off, scum
Thank you for your kind words. I’m not even trying to necessarily change people’s minds or expect people to agree with me. IRL, everyone around me is pretty conservative. I come on here to balance that out, and see how people would respond and answer their talking points. Sometimes I do actually correct my peers IRL when they have misconceptions gained from their echo chamber, because of something I learned on here. I respect everyone here regardless of opinion. And what I find is what pushes a lot of people I know IRL away is militantism - whether people like it or not. When I was growing up, I was sucked into a right-wing rabbit hole, originally just because I felt that right wing people were more considerate and respectful of what I had to say. I then realised a lot of what they were saying was very untrue, but I couldn’t fit in with other communities either as they were upset when I wasn’t singing from the same hymn sheet as them. I appreciate you and everyone who engages with me in a civil manner.
It’s called keeping out the riff raff.
I’d rather not. Most people around me IRL are conservative. This place is where I get another perspective. If you want another person in this country just voting for whatever farage is saying, then I’ll go to Facebook.