Mamdani has been very explicit and consistent in saying Israel has “the right to exist” as “a state with equal rights” (which he currently does not view it as being). That’s why he keeps getting badgered about the “Jewish state” question and he has never said it has “the right to exist as a Jewish state”.
Obviously, he does not believe what we do, but the logical implication of his beliefs are functionally the replacement of the existing Israeli government with one that is not apartheid.
Also there were many warcrimes committed on Oct 7th by Hamas, though in all likelihood Israel committed more in pursuit of the Hannibal Doctrine and so on. I don’t think it’s a great point to dwell on, and Hamas is still obviously the superior side, but he is correct.
someone consistently saying something bad doesnt make it good lol
as for the war crimes claim, i wont comment on supposed war crimes being committed by individual members of hamas because we don’t know what’s true or not about that day. what we do know is the act its self was not a war crime, it was an act of resistance. to reduce it down to the actions of the individuals is not something i want to get into because as someone who was born in america in lived here most their life i cant say i can really put myself in their shoes.
someone consistently saying something bad doesnt make it good lol
He has consistently denied Israel’s “right to exist” as an ethnostate, that’s my point. If you believe that means opposing the Israeli government completely, I agree with you and he probably does too. He recognizes, as should you, that supporting an apartheid state’s hypothetical right to exist if it didn’t have apartheid is immaterial in terms of supporting it with apartheid and is a reasonable tool for reorienting the conversation toward who is supporting apartheid and who isn’t.
what we do know is the act its self was not a war crime, it was an act of resistance.
There were several prongs to the attack, some of which were on military bases and those were not war crimes that we know of. Other prongs amounted to just attacking normal families and killing people, men, women, and children alike. We do not know the true extent to which this happened because Israel has systematically made this information impossible to determine. But saying they committed war crimes is not a condemnation of the broader movement. The Haitian Revolution involved some pretty severe war crimes, and it is still better for it to have happened than for it to have not happened because it still repelled France and freed countless people from slavery.
the entire idea that we’re supposed to discuss war crimes supposedly committed by a population of people who live in a concentration camp is absurd to me so im just gonna drop out of this convo
You mention marxism earlier, but this is a very moralizing framing. Yes, the Palestinian people, including the membership of Hamas, has been brutally victimized past most living memory. There is no contradiction in being both a victim and – to a lesser extent that we should not allow to eclipse our view of the former – a perpetrator. If there was a breakout from Dachau and the people breaking out deliberately executed children in the later stages of their short-lived freedom, they have committed a crime. That doesn’t mean we condemn even that specific group as people who should be left in the camps, or even that the project they were engaging in was a bad thing overall, it just means that there were also misdeeds involved.
The opposition to the idea that people need to be perfect victims to deserve support does not need to produce the inverted extreme in which we must take victims as being perfect by merit of being victims. No, they don’t deserve their victimhood and they should be supported in their fight, but that doesn’t mean they get some kind of blank check that every individual action in that process is to be regarded as justified. You’re seriously going to talk yourself into Gonzalo-style terrorism with this set of assumptions.
i said i was done with this conversation but you made a lot of unfair assumptions about me and my views so let me say it like this;
the entire framing of “war crimes on october 7th” is ridiculous and it has absolutely nothing with my supposed rejection of the “perfect victim” narrative. it has to do with the entire framework of calling something a war crime being completely fake. the laws to punish “war crimes” do not apply to israel, the US, or their allies. israel’s existence is a war crime. what israel has been doing for 80 years is a war crime. october 6th was a war crime. october 5th was a war crime. i will not condemn the actions of people living in those conditions under western settler colonialism with the frame work those very nations dont apply to themselves. the entire discussion only goes to serve the us and israel in their genocide.
hamas is not at war with “israel”, they’re defending themselves from violent invaders who view them as subhuman and treat them as such. they can not commit a “war crime” as defined by western powers who are themselves committing war crimes and worse with impunity while crying “war crimes”
Mamdani has been very explicit and consistent in saying Israel has “the right to exist” as “a state with equal rights” (which he currently does not view it as being). That’s why he keeps getting badgered about the “Jewish state” question and he has never said it has “the right to exist as a Jewish state”.
Obviously, he does not believe what we do, but the logical implication of his beliefs are functionally the replacement of the existing Israeli government with one that is not apartheid.
Also there were many warcrimes committed on Oct 7th by Hamas, though in all likelihood Israel committed more in pursuit of the Hannibal Doctrine and so on. I don’t think it’s a great point to dwell on, and Hamas is still obviously the superior side, but he is correct.
someone consistently saying something bad doesnt make it good lol
as for the war crimes claim, i wont comment on supposed war crimes being committed by individual members of hamas because we don’t know what’s true or not about that day. what we do know is the act its self was not a war crime, it was an act of resistance. to reduce it down to the actions of the individuals is not something i want to get into because as someone who was born in america in lived here most their life i cant say i can really put myself in their shoes.
He has consistently denied Israel’s “right to exist” as an ethnostate, that’s my point. If you believe that means opposing the Israeli government completely, I agree with you and he probably does too. He recognizes, as should you, that supporting an apartheid state’s hypothetical right to exist if it didn’t have apartheid is immaterial in terms of supporting it with apartheid and is a reasonable tool for reorienting the conversation toward who is supporting apartheid and who isn’t.
There were several prongs to the attack, some of which were on military bases and those were not war crimes that we know of. Other prongs amounted to just attacking normal families and killing people, men, women, and children alike. We do not know the true extent to which this happened because Israel has systematically made this information impossible to determine. But saying they committed war crimes is not a condemnation of the broader movement. The Haitian Revolution involved some pretty severe war crimes, and it is still better for it to have happened than for it to have not happened because it still repelled France and freed countless people from slavery.
the entire idea that we’re supposed to discuss war crimes supposedly committed by a population of people who live in a concentration camp is absurd to me so im just gonna drop out of this convo
nothin but respect for my fellow worm tho
You mention marxism earlier, but this is a very moralizing framing. Yes, the Palestinian people, including the membership of Hamas, has been brutally victimized past most living memory. There is no contradiction in being both a victim and – to a lesser extent that we should not allow to eclipse our view of the former – a perpetrator. If there was a breakout from Dachau and the people breaking out deliberately executed children in the later stages of their short-lived freedom, they have committed a crime. That doesn’t mean we condemn even that specific group as people who should be left in the camps, or even that the project they were engaging in was a bad thing overall, it just means that there were also misdeeds involved.
The opposition to the idea that people need to be perfect victims to deserve support does not need to produce the inverted extreme in which we must take victims as being perfect by merit of being victims. No, they don’t deserve their victimhood and they should be supported in their fight, but that doesn’t mean they get some kind of blank check that every individual action in that process is to be regarded as justified. You’re seriously going to talk yourself into Gonzalo-style terrorism with this set of assumptions.
i said i was done with this conversation but you made a lot of unfair assumptions about me and my views so let me say it like this;
the entire framing of “war crimes on october 7th” is ridiculous and it has absolutely nothing with my supposed rejection of the “perfect victim” narrative. it has to do with the entire framework of calling something a war crime being completely fake. the laws to punish “war crimes” do not apply to israel, the US, or their allies. israel’s existence is a war crime. what israel has been doing for 80 years is a war crime. october 6th was a war crime. october 5th was a war crime. i will not condemn the actions of people living in those conditions under western settler colonialism with the frame work those very nations dont apply to themselves. the entire discussion only goes to serve the us and israel in their genocide.
hamas is not at war with “israel”, they’re defending themselves from violent invaders who view them as subhuman and treat them as such. they can not commit a “war crime” as defined by western powers who are themselves committing war crimes and worse with impunity while crying “war crimes”
fuck all that.