It’s mostly because of who the western left has been for the past 50 years. Like I don’t mean to be critical of anyone here, but the strands of leftism that we represent are sort of new in the west. Or rather, haven’t been around in great force in a long time. American leftism had been largely dead since maybe the Weather Underground. It wasn’t until around Occupy Wallstreet (2012) and the revitalization of the DSA (~2016) did American leftism begin to grow again, and become more coherent rather than an ambient feeling in the air.

But when I say it was dead, I don’t mean it was inanimate. From between around 1972 to 2012 there were communists in America but the dominant ideology was Trotskyism. They wiggled their way into being the only game in town for a long while. You wanted to join a student org? Ok, here’s 6 students on campus who swear they’re not Stalinists. You wanted to join a party? Ok, here’s ISA. You were randomly handed a newspaper at a protest by some type of communist party? Probably Trotskyites (or the other pejorative, Marcyite, although Marcyism today is much more aligned with international Marxism-Leninism)

It can’t be overstated how they much they dominated discourage and organization in North America for decades. They were the primary leftists around, and honestly I think they’re where some of the American leftist stereotypes came from. “That’s not real communism” or how we’re all students or we’re pushy with pamphlets.

So anyway, since people here by and large represent a break from that, there’s going to be tension. I’m going to guess most people here have no association with American leftist organizing as far back as the 80s or 90s. I’m close, I remember going into leftist chat rooms and forums around 2003 and they were all largely Trotskyists. Even our beloved Marxists.org is ancient enough to have Trot founders.

So that’s it really. Newer leftists are breaking away from the previous parties/orgs and trying to find new ground, since the perception is the past 4 decades of American leftism have been highly ineffective. Saying those decades have been ineffective is synonymous with criticizing Trotskyists, since they were the dominant voice for much of that.

In addition to other things said in this thread, I highly recommend watching this video for a non-western perspective on the matter.

Trots and MLs want practically the same thing but Trots define themselves by their opposition to MLs. Depending on the circumstances they join the “tankies bad” crowd when it suits them, then drop out of it when it doesn’t.

This splitting and wrecking is incredibly harmful to the left. There’s absolutely no tolerance for Vaushites or nato-“anarchists” that form the core of that anti-tankie crowd, because it is anti-communism. Trots therefore represent a dangerous tendency within the left that might split and join in with anti-communism if they feel a particular way on a particular day.

With that said my experience with trots is that they have been very good at two particular things: Archiving and newspapers, which includes blogs and some sites that are blogs but manage to present as larger news orgs.

Oh and their entryist and reformist tactics have repeatedly failed.

As Samir Amin summarises in Revolution from North to South:

The central reality of the imperialist character of historical capitalism implies an inescapable correlate: the long transition to socialism occurs through unequal advances, mainly originating in the peripheries of the world system. There is no “world revolution” on the agenda whose center of gravity would be found in the advanced centers. Lenin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, and Castro understood that and accepted the challenge of “constructing socialism in one country.” Trotsky never understood that. The limits of what was achievable in these conditions, beginning with the heritage of the “backward” capitalism found in the peripheries, accounts for the later history of the twentieth century’s great revolutions, including their deviations and failures.

Quite simply, the Trotskyist hypothesis of permanent revolution is in opposition to the idea of socialism in one country, which Stalin, and most subsequent revolutions, have followed.

What Trotsky believed and why he believed it is almost irrelevant compared to the rhetorical position that someone assumes by calling themself a Trotskyist. The basic vibe of it was, “The USSR could’ve been good, but it went wrong at such-and-such point, so as it is now it’s bad.” If you erased Trotsky and all of his ideas from history, there would still be plenty of people adopting that position while calling themselves something else. It’s a way of tempering support and gaining protection from criticism of a state’s actions. We see a similar phenomenon with ultraleft Maoists opposed to the modern PRC. By holding up an improbable ideal of “What could’ve been,” they malign the real material improvements delivered by the actually existing socialist projects, and frequently they’ll be some of the first to criticize such projects in order to distance themselves from them. The perfect is allowed to be the enemy of good, and so they become de facto supporters of the status quo because nothing is ever good or pure enough to challenge it. Criticism of AES states is fine, but if you completely write them off then you’re throwing away your only proof of concept that your ideology - which seeks to overturn the world order and bring war and instability in the short term - can actually succeed at making things better.

anarchists dont like trotsky cause he killed anarchists, mls dont like trotsky cause he was railing against the soviet union while nazis were at the gates. its almost in action

Trots who have never been to AES countries like to tell me all about how China is such a capitalist imperialist nation, and how we must stand against China. Like, what the hell are you talking about? You’re an American, like me, living in get imperial core, benefiting from the exploitation of the working class, and you’re telling me to oppose a country that has done more for its people to lessen that in just the last year than my country has in the last 75? I think American leftists have much bigger priorities than trash talking AES and helping the empire by spreading Sinophobia and lies. Go to China, ask the working class how their lives have changed since they entered the work force. Ask the elderly how their lives have changed since they were kids. Talk to actual Chinese proletariat. Try to avoid using the C word, and focus on material ways their lives have been made better over time. Don’t ask any of them to overthrow their government, that would be stupid as fuck and you’d deserve it if they reported you and got you kicked the fuck out.

It’s a meme cuz in the cringe world two or three whole generations turned out to be plants or genuine reactionary dipshits, and in the rest of the world they were innefective while always shitting on AES

In any case, as any other leftist they are always annoying and the True One Leftists

My few experiences with Trots:

1. I tried to talk to some SA people, all they wanted to do was sell a newspaper, even as I was asking about their platform and what joining might look like. Once I bought the paper they were a little bit friendlier but that was all I needed to experience to not want to be involved.

2. Two different Trotskyist groups injecting themselves into every vaguely left thing in town. One of the groups was straight up disruptive while the other one would just try to recruit people.

3. A Trot that somehow snuck into a union organizer position ghosting me and my coworkers when we tried to organize. I found out he quit from someone else in the labor movement a few months later.

4. Over the last year I’ve been introduced to a number of people who had interest in an ideology that is a weird blend of Trotskyism and anarchism and most of those people and their ideas are absolutely cursed.