• PugJesus@lemmy.worldOPEnglish
    18·
    6 days ago

    Explanation: In Classical Latin, you generally place the verb at the end of a sentence. Cicero was fond of making long, elaborate sentences filled with nested statements in his speeches, so he is somewhat notorious amongst Latin students for taking forever to get to the damn verb and make it clear what he’s actually talking about.

  • Lvxferre [he/him]@mander.xyz
    4·
    5 days ago

    If Latin was default-SVO instead of default-SOV, and most modern W. European languages were SOV instead of SVO, people would still be complaining about Cicero. But it would be about never reaching the direct object.

    And… really, the issue is that Cicero used the language well; he was great at making himself clear in the original, so he presents the information in way that sounds logic and natural… in the Latin of those times. However information flow is different from language to language, so this means you need to be used enough to Latin to follow it well. (I’m still not at that point, personally; but I’m starting to see the light.)

    I’ll give you guys an example. Here’s the start of Laelius de Amicitia (Laelius on Friendship). I’ll bold the verbs.

    Q. Mucius augur multa narrare de C. Laelio socero suo memoriter, et iucunde solebat nec dubitare illum in omni sermone appellare sapientem. Ego autem a patre ita eram deductus ad Scaevolam sumpta virili toga, ut, quoad possem et liceret, a senis latere numquam discederem. Itaque multa ab eo prudenter disputata, multa etiam breviter et commode dicta memoriae mandabam, fierique studebam eius prudentia doctior. Quo mortuo me ad pontificem Scaevolam contuli, quem unum nostrae civitatis et ingenio et iustitia praestantissimum audeo dicere. Sed de hoc alias, nunc redeo ad augurem.

    For reference, here's a sloppy translation of the text

    The augur Quintus Mucius [Scaevola] often talked about things he remembers by heart, from his father-in-law Laelius. Always in a nice way, calling Laelius “wise” without a shadow of doubt. And when I became adult, my father introduced me to Scaevola, to stay as close to him as possible and allowed. So, as Scaevola discussed many sensible matters, I also remember things he said brief and conveniently, as I was trying to learn from his wisdom. When the augur Scaevola died, I took the side of [his relative] the pontifex Scaevola; I dare to say the pontifex was unique in our city, in both intellect and fairness. But that’s for another time - let me focus back on the augur.

    When he keeps the verb in the default position, near the end, it’s because it isn’t conveying much to begin with. You can guess it from what was said before, and if you guess it wrong, no biggie - you got the relevant part.

    And note the general flow of the text. It’s kind of hard to replicate it in modern W. European languages; specially because you can’t front things to give them emphasis, like Cicero does all the time. But it feels like Cicero is answering a FAQ - that’s fucking perfect for the introduction of a text:

    • “Cicero, who’s the Laelius of the title?” A: Scaevola’s father-in-law
    • “Why do you know about him?” A: Because Scaevola talked a lot about him
    • “Why do you know what Scaevola said?” A: I studied under him as a young adult, and I had to pay close attention to what he said.
    • “Is this about «that» Scaevola, the pontifex?” Nope - the pontifex was a great man, but I’m talking about the augur.

    The rest of the text, plus almost all his other writings, are all like that.

    [Sorry for the wall of text. I really like what Cicero wrote.]