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Western Marxism Loves Purity and Martyrdom, But Not Real Revolution (2020) by Jones Manoel
There is a great tendency in the eastern left, according to Perry Anderson, to separate western and eastern Marxism. Western Marxism is basically a kind of Marxism which has, as a key characteristic, never exercised political power. It is a Marxism that has, more and more frequently, concerned itself with philosophical and aesthetic issues. It has pulled back, for example, from criticism of political economy and the problem of the conquest of political power. More and more it has taken a historic distance from the concrete experiences of socialist transition in the Soviet Union, China, Viet Nam, Cuba and so forth. This western Marxism considers itself to be superior to eastern Marxism because it hasn’t tarnished Marxism by transforming it into an ideology of the State like, for example, Soviet Marxism, and it has never been authoritarian, totalitarian or violent. This Marxism preserves the purity of theory to the detriment of the fact that it has never produced a revolution anywhere on the face of the Earth – this is a very important point.
Every movement that appears to stray a bit from these “pure” models that were created a priori is explained through the concept of betrayal, or is explained as “state capitalism.” Therefore, nothing is socialism and everything is state capitalism. Nothing is socialist transition and everything is state capitalism. The revolution is only a revolution during that glorious moment of taking political power. Starting from the moment of building a new social order, its over. Revolution is always a political process which has two moments: a moment of destruction of the old capitalist order and taking power, and a moment of building a new order. The contradictions, the problems, the failures, the mistakes, sometimes even the crimes, mainly happen during this moment of building the new order. So when the time comes to evaluate the building of a new social order – which is where, apparently, the practice always appears to stray from the purity of theory – the specific appears corrupted in the face of the universal. It is at this point that the idea of betrayal is evoked, that the idea of counter revolution is evoked, and that the idea of State Capitalism appears in order to preserve the purity of theory.
China and DPRK are not socialist. They are fascist states in a costume of socialism
You know “Fascist” actually means something and isn’t just a synonym of “place I don’t like”
Yes, I would like one, uhhh, high speed rail network with a side of, uhhh, universal healthcare, hold the genocide and secret police, please.
Their secret police.
Our civilian police.
Their “authoritarianism”.
Our law and order.
Their concentration camps.
Our massive prison industrial complex enforcing slave labour on minorities.Also there’s no proof of a genocide going on in China. The main proponent of the accusations is the Falun Gong and Adrian Zenz - a man on a divine mission to crush communism, who has made frequent and egregious “errors” in his translation and methodology.
On the other hand countries in the EU are funding refugee “camps” like that on Moria, with conditions so horrible people are fleeing daily, and the EU is funding border patrols in Turkey that make use of excessive force. These actions would by any fair definition be genocide.
Likewise the United States is far from innocent, both at the border with Mexico where there’s many reports of militias hunting refugees, and in the large prison-industrial complex which houses the largest prisoner population in the world - a population that has an outsized number of minorities. These are worked to death. By any fair definition the US is carrying out a genocide.
However it is these countries’ accusations we should somehow take seriously? Why? Why should we take What France claims China is doing at face value, when France itself is embroiled in colonial wars in Africa? What reason have these countries given us? The United States especially has a proven track record of lying in order to foment ill will against a geopolitical enemy.Not to mention communist prisons on average are far more humane and actually about rehabilitation than U.S. prisons, Xinjiang vocational re-education of potential fascists lauded by the entire Arab world being a prime example.
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No one disagrees that america had committed atrocities and generally sucks with its foreign policy. Most educated people in the US are happy to admit and fight for change within the government on that. It is not denied.
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Has china allowed for international investigators to investigate the situation in Xinjiang?
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You’d be surprised how many Yankee “leftists” aren’t aware of basic stuff like the Radio Frees, the current indigenous genocide, school to prison pipeline, or the sanctions against the “authoritarian” AES countries (causing a lot of their real issues), among many others, and are very willing to side with their own meddling against countries that are actually trying something because they might be “not true socialism.” Even if all accusations against Cuba or China (I don’t know that much about Vietnam or DPRK) were correct, they’d still be the lesser evil by a long shot.
There were other visits too, but NATO countries are mostly intentionally boycotting the investigation. I’m pretty sure any person who can do tourism in China can go there so long as they don’t break laws. But I remember a recent article where NATO countries were advising against travelling there, for mysterious reasons.
Oh definitely. Education is important, and it is important to acknowledge the faults of your community. I make a point of being aware of the ugly parts of the past and present.
Regarding Xinjiang - Arab League nations have a huge financial interest in staying on China’s good side. I worry that the billions of dollars of investment creates a conflict of interest. It makes it difficult to see them as trustworthy in this particular matter.
It also conflicts with the findings of the UN human rights office.
I recognize that this isn’t the most solid evidence, but my local kabob shop owner is Uyghur from that area. They say they left before it became bad, but they have friends and family who are experiencing what the UN office is saying firsthand.
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What genocide?
Do you know the actual truth of the Holodomor or Xinjiang? Are you willing to know?
Comrades who are jumping straight to retorting are unwittingly making it seem like, “well yes, there was a genocide, but it was worth it.” Please do not allow any gap in our response that allows this interpretation. There has never been a genocide committed by a socialist country and we should make it clear we will not cede that atrociously false accusation.
Your contention is that Stalin committed no genocide? What do you call it, sparkling ethnic cleansing?
Do you call the Dust Bowl and Great Depression a genocide? Words have meaning.
You love to present overdramatic accusations when a famine occurs in a socialist country, and there’s usually only one big one.
Edit: If you’re talking about something else, please elaborate as to your specific allegation.
I asked you for a source earlier and you didn’t respond.Edit 2: I stand corrected; I conflated you with a different user, but I’d still appreciate your source. Unfortunately, due to the lateness of this edit, the instance admins have already banned you, so I probably won’t find this out.
You didn’t ask me for shit earlier. This is my first comment here.
The Dust Bowl and Great Depression is a thing that happened. What occurred in Stalin’s reign is a pattern, that included famines. Were the famines specifically engineered to kill off specific groups? I don’t know. But when you take a holistic view, and look at executions, gulag assignments, forced resettlement, deportations, and, yes, famines, there was very clearly a genocide under Stalin.
Millions of people died as a direct result of Stalin’s policies and actions. I don’t know if they were all with intent, but many definitely were.
I don’t understand how anyone can defend Stalin. I guess people deny the Holocaust too, so there’s that.
I guess people deny the Holocaust too, so there’s that.
By trying to paint the Soviet Union as genocidal, you are denying the Holocaust. Simple as.
Woof, that’s some leap.
Prisoners in the United States jumped from 120,284 in 1923 to 210,418 in 1933. (Source (p. 210))
Executions increased to 197, the highest number in US history, in 1935. (Source)
The U.S. forcibly deported one million of its own citizens to Mexico in the 1930s. Source
Since you’re probably using an intentionally ridiculous US estimate, I’ll use an intentionally ridiculous Russian estimate and say that seven million people died from the Great Depression. This Russian estimate uses the same intentionally ridiculous methodology of the U.S. one.
Put together, why isn’t this enough to declare that a genocide happened in the U.S.?
Nice whataboutism. But fuck it, I’ll bite. A genocide has absolutely happened in the US, funny that you didn’t hit on it.
Let’s play a game. I’m going to call it, “can we agree on some basic facts?”
Stalin, through his policies and leadership, killed millions of Soviet citizens. True or false?
funny that you didn’t hit on it.
Apologies for the confusing wording above. That’s because I was comparing two similar events to see if you would call it a genocide when the U.S. did it. If you did, I’d question your definition of genocide, but at least accept you’re applying it consistently.
I absolutely agree with you on that basic fact — the US has engaged in countless successful genocides against indigenous peoples.
Stalin, through his policies and leadership, killed millions of Soviet citizens.
False.
First of all, to attribute deaths solely to one individual (even to Hitler) denies anyone else responsible of their free will in doing so.
@[email protected], would you mind holding this lib up to scrutiny since the one on Hexbear didn’t respond?
Millions of people died as a direct result of Stalin’s policies and actions.
And the dust bowl was the direct result of the US governments policies and actions, so why is only one of them “a thing that happened,” you raging hypocrite?
Are you capable of reading and processing information? Nevermind that the Great Depression was a worldwide catastrophe. Nevermind that it’s thousands vs millions of people. Did you notice where I talked about the larger pattern in the USSR? There wasn’t just one famine, but a shitload of things causing the deaths of millions of people, many of which were fucking executions.
Are you capable of reading and processing information?
Are you?
Nevermind that the Great Depression was a worldwide catastrophe.
Point to where I mentioned the Great Depression.
Nevermind that it’s thousands vs millions of people.
What methodology did you use to determine your numbers? And why would it matter anyway? Is it not a genocide if it’s bellow a certain amount?
There wasn’t just one famine
Yes there was, unless you’re counting the one caused by the Nazis flattening half of it, in which case I’m just going to write you off as a Nazi apologist.
but a shitload of things causing the deaths of millions of people, many of which were fucking executions.
Yes, that is indeed true of the USA, so why is the Dust Bowl “Just a thing that happened”, but the famine that happened in the same time period in the USSR not?
It’s crazy - we all actually tend to agree on most things. We all sort of agree that the US government has committed atrocities, that wealth redistribution is what we should be striving for, that billionaires suck, that universal healthcare is good, all that good shit.
But they are stuck on the idea that their favorite governments can do no wrong.
“I agree that the U.S. is evil and has been the objective bad guy in every war it’s ever been in (and the US has almost never not been at war) but I believe the U.S. wholeheartedly in matters of foreign policy”
Of course they can do wrong. We acknowledge legitimate criticisms, but we’re going to refute slander against socialist governments.
If you compartmentalize counties in war to “good guys” and “bad guys”, you’re really going to claim that the US was the bad guy in WW2?
I apologize for the bad terminology, but I’ll stick with it to answer your question. Even in WW2, the Soviets were the “good guys” and the US only intervened when it was obvious the Soviets would win to stop a communist Europe.
Secret police is what you call an intelligence agency of a country you don’t like
Our secret police like the FBI? And our genocide like in North Korea?
Yes. The point of view here is anti-authoritarian.
There has been no genocide committed by a socialist country, no need to point out any of the dozens committed by the U.S. alone.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se
There has been no genocide committed by a socialist country
You only had to provide one example to disprove a claim of this sort, and you couldn’t do it?
I’m sure whatever I say you’ll have some precooked answer, so I’d rather make a fun comparison
“I have no argument that you can’t refute, so I’m just going to behave in bad faith”
yes, totally owned us by quoting a children’s cartoon when prompted to give evidence for genocide, good job redditor.
Do you want the end of capitalism yes or no
Well that depends. A giant meteor will technically end capitalism. What’s the point if we’re not striving to improve everyone’s quality of life?
If you want the end of capitalism you’ll support whatever it realistically takes to dismantle it. And that won’t exactly be an “open” or “transparent” process while it happens. Simply put, the collective force that replaces capitalism will have to coerce certain people into accepting the change, if nothing else but for the safety of that new administration (IE avoiding rightwing takeovers, legit sabotage, hatecrimes etc).
Just remember that about anticapitalism - whatever form it takes, it’s no dinner party. Even after a revolution, certain people try to resist things they have no material reason to oppose. Those people are reactionary - directionless, even dangerous unless they’re re-educated or have privileges restricted.
I appreciate that. It’s not lost on me that a lot of communist regimes got really fucked up by trade embargos, sanctions, counter-intelligence campaigns, etc. Power is rarely ceded willingly, of course. However, my primary concern lies with improving the quality of life for everyone, or at least maximizing the well being of the population. Part of that equation, for my point of view, includes the ability for people to think and speak freely without fear of reprisal by the government. Say what you will, but I’ve hosted eight different exchange students, including one from Russia; none were concerned about answering questions about their home country except for the kid from Hong Kong. I asked them whether they identified as a citizen of Hong Kong or of China first, because I was hoping to get an irl sample for how Hong Kongers actually felt, but let them out of the question when I confirmed with them that that was a sensitive question.
If you’re living with a boot on your throat, does the distinction really matter if it’s a capitalist’s boot or a communist’s boot?
If you’re living with a boot on your throat, does the distinction really matter if it’s a capitalist’s boot or a communist’s boot?
Try looking at it from the point of view of the oppressed class who is benefiting from communist rule, and being harmed by capitalist rule, rather than from the point of view of the super rich people.
Unless I happen to be mistaken, poor people get the bullet, too. We just don’t hear about it because they’re not famous. I’m taking a wild guess here, but I suspect that the muslims in Xinjiang aren’t exactly what you would typically think of as the capital owning class. You can’t even (practically, I’m sure there’s some loophole or asterisk here) be critical of the bad ideas of your government, just shut up and kill more sparrows. As far as I can tell, it’s trading oppression for sparkling oppression.
Nobody has been killed in Xinjiang. There is a reason its original liars had to specify it was a “cultural genocide,” which it isn’t, either. Like the full break down?
Part of that equation, for my point of view, includes the ability for people to think and speak freely without fear of reprisal by the government
This is like the people who say “We’re freer than the Chinese because I can call Trump a peepee poopoo pants on Twitter without being arrested!” when that doesn’t actually do anything at all
but if you try and protest and change conditions materially and meaningfully, you can absolutely bet your ass you will be disappeared like the horror stories you find on reddit about “totalitarian regimes”. The only reason why Americans don’t think it doesn’t happen in the West is either because it’s so completely internalized that it becomes memeified (“Haha, I hope the FBI agent watching me through my camera is having a nice day!”) or none of the media that they engage with reports on it.
IMO, this entire point is just a liberal ideological bludgeon, a condition that can be applied at-will to any government they want to criticize because no government will be good enough all of the time. it’s one thing if you’re an anarchist and oppose every government equally for not fulfilling that condition, that I can understand and respect, it’s quite another when you’re like “Oh, no, I hate authoritarianism! That’s why we need to constantly criticize a country on the literal other side of the planet 99.7% of the time, and then only criticize our own country when somebody calls us out on it by saying ‘Oh, yeah, America also does bad things too!’” Especially when America’s role in the world for the last century at least, and more accurately really since its conception, has been a source of capitalist reaction across its whole hemisphere and later the whole planet, with hundreds upon hundreds of military bases and tens of millions directly and indirectly killed in wars. Criticizing, say, Cuba or DPRK for these sorts of things is effectively zooming in on a single corpse in righteous indignation while ignoring the seas of blood spilled by America behind you.
I mean, yeah, I am anti-authoritarian before anything else. That’s basically where my problem with China, among many others, begins and ends. The US has a lot of big problems that need fixing immediately on that front, and that’s without getting into the bodies under the front porch. We could go into that, if you like, I just didn’t think it was particularly relevant at the moment.
It’s cute you think you would actually win the argument with the “bodies under the front porch” (in your words), considering how this whole thread has been going for you so far.
Because almost all of them (not Marx) are authoritarian power hungry dictators/dictatorships? Seriously… Is OP implying that East Germany was a good socialist country? Wtf are they on? Did the USSR have queer rights? What about Vietnam? NORTH KOREA!!! Animals have better rights there. OP is either a fourteen year old, terminally on discord, bullied dude. If that is the case, I’m sorry. Have been there… However, if this is not the case, then OP is just extremely extremely stupid.
East Germany was actually solid, read the Triumph of Evil. West Germany was worse, to be fully honest and would have been just as poor without the Imperial Core banding together to build it back up.
The USSR had queer rights at the beginning of the revolution and after Stalin took over anti-lgbt laws were rarely enforced
What’s wrong with Vietnam?
The DPRK isn’t perfect but i can guarantee to you 99% of the things you’ve heard about it are false. Did you know with a North Korean passport you can go to China? NATO prevents expats from North Korea from being accepted to work elsewhere. the “13 haircuts” myth was started from a barber’s hairstyle suggestion board.
Just because all of your knowledge about socialist movements come from western sources doesn’t make knowledgeable people “terminally on discord” or a “bullied dude.” educate yourself.
Okay, so I read up more about homosexuality in the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_and_LGBT_rights#Soviet_Union From the looks of it, it was legally quite open during Lenin, but progressively got worse with time. I don’t think we even need to talk about modern Russia’s position on it. Let’s look at China. Why can’t same sex families adopt children?
In case of Vietnam, again… let’s look at suppression of freedom of speech. Why isn’t the press free?
The DPRK isn’t perfect… Omg wtf are you talking about? Why then aren’t they allowed access to the internet? Why are they still stuck in the 70s? Why aren’t North Koreans allowed to emigrate to South Korea? Why is the Kim family in power for so long and uncontested? When was the last North Korean election? Who was the prime contender? Why is some soul crushing music played every morning in Pyongyang? Or are the videos of that western propaganda too? The DPRK is literally the most dystopian place on the face of this planet.
knowledgeable people Define “knowledgeable people”… Sure, western propaganda is definitely a thing. So is Chinese/Russian propaganda. Again… I’m not defending the west anywhere here. All I’m doing is refusing to idolize the socialist governments of the past and the present like the USSR. When I say I want a “socialist future”, I do not mean that I want the Soviet Union. What I want is something that is very very different than that nightmare.
Why aren’t they allowed to access the internet?
You think one of the most sanctioned countries in history that’s been spending years and years trying to build cities and roads, you think they’d have time/infrastructure to bring all of their citizens WiFi? Do you know even half of what goes into making an internet network, let alone without the support of other nations?
Why are they still stuck in the 70’s?
What do you mean by this? If you mean technology wise, see above.
Why aren’t North Koreans allowed to emigrate to South Korea?
United Nations Security Council 2397. Read it.
Why is the Kim family in power for so long uncontested? When was the last North Korean election? Who was the prime contender?
Google “Juche.”
Why is some soul crushing music played every morning in Pyongyang?
What does this even mean, link a video to it, I am genuinely curious as to what this is even referencing.
What I mean by “knowledgeable people” is people who can see past the western propaganda to take a critical look at past socialist experiments. You, clearly, still can’t see past things at surface value. Everything is black and white to you. Why can’t you look at history, current dynamics, sanctions, foreign pressure, etc, etc. Instead, you go to flinging petty insults at people whose side you should be on! You say you want something that is very very different than the soviet union? Then, I’m afraid you don’t want socialism.
United Nations Security Council 2397. Read it.
There’s that, but also they are technically still at war with each other (North and South). South Koreans fleeing towards the North have been shot at by their side.
Is OP implying that East Germany was a good socialist country? Wtf are they on? Did the USSR have queer rights?
East Germany was literally the most progressive country in human history in terms of queer rights. Cuba is now.
Queer rights in the USSR means that every single socialist project that ever was is… le bad!
Is OP implying that East Germany was a good socialist country?
you know east germany was the first modern european country to make being gay legal right
And West Germany put gay men back into the camps
Is OP implying that East Germany was a good socialist country?
Yes, and the majority of East Germans agree.
Why have you linked an article from fkin 2009 lmao. Did you look up “East Germans love East Germany” and link the first article that you saw? What poll is this article referring to? Pewresearch (2019) say something very different. According to their surveys, East Germans have reported a dramatic rise in quality of life post 1991.
So your sole criteria for freedom is if a country has queer rights? … And you call others children?
Good news everyone, US imperialism is no more: you can marry your partner! (Terms and conditions apply)
So your sole criteria for freedom is if a country has queer rights? Well no. Many more things. Queer rights are just one of these parameters that are easily visible in my opinion. Let’s talk about freedom of speech however. I can access the internet in any way that I want in Canada. Can I do that in China? Nope! Say hello to the great firewall! I can protest the government (mostly) in western countries. When I do that in China, I get run over by tanks. Tiananmen Square massacre much? Oh… is that western propaganda too now? I can make fun of Biden, Trudeau, Trump, etc. Can I do that in China?
Being a socialist doesn’t mean I have to glorify any of the former/present socialist countries and ignore their problems (which there are A LOT of).
