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Despite the triggering headline, this is a pretty good article that talks about how younger men are falling for this horseshit
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Doesn’t seem super well theorized to me. How exactly is porn playing into it? I do think the black and white language around metoo (yesallmen, believewomen) marginalized a lot of guys and contributes to this mindset. People who took it literally found the moral imperative it implied absurd and decided they’d need to find another narrative that they could be proud of themselves inside of. This is what they found when they looked. Invalidating all expert opinion as liberal makes it hard to bring sense into the conversation.
I do think apps like tinder are directly responsible for all the self published bullshit they read mixing terms from economics to analyze the ‘sexual marketplace’ and seem mostly premised on the idea that some woman owes you in particular because of statistics.
But yesallmen/believeallwomen DID, as you say, come with widely available explanation and purpose.
There are no magic words to associate with this that will not “turn away” people who want to be turned away. Just as racists will always find minority protest to be “protesting in the wrong way”. They will claim “cancellation” no matter how you phrase the reality of the situation
Some will, but when you are fighting to change norms language and optics are an important part of that. I think the movement would have been stronger had it avoided language implying gender essentialism.
It absolutely did not. It came with shouting down anyone who wanted to question women who came forward with rape accusations. That’s how some of these highly-publicised cases, like Matress Girl, resulted in immediate expulsion of those accused. Had they done actual investigating into the matter, they would have seen the woman absolutely should not be believed, but that went against the slogan.
But yesallmen/believeallwomen DID, as you say, come with widely available explanation and purpose.
…and you don’t think that choice of language played a part in the reaction to things like when Jimmy Bennett accused Asia Argento of statutory rape and she paid him off to shut him up? I mean, she more or less literally did what #metoo was accusing powerful men of doing, had done it recently at that point, and didn’t get half the shit most #metoo targets got as a consequence. Or that aide that accused a CA legislator of being inappropriate with him, so she investigated herself and found no wrongdoing on her part.
And even the people who claim to be all about #metoo and #believewomen get…picky about that when a woman accuses the wrong person - see Tara Reade’s accusation against Biden.
I posted this elsewhere:
This is not a coincidence, this is the result of a long-term, political strategy. Anyone remember GamerGate? There has been an extreme backlash against feminism since the mid-2010s which GamerGate was a part of. (GamerGate in itself was part of a wider strategy that the far-right began to use on 4chan in the late 00s.)
Steve Bannon (then EIC at Breitbart) pushed GamerGate’s anti-feminism into the mainstream right-wing politics because he saw it as an opportunity to recruit young men. Unfortunately he was right and his strategy has paid off, forming an anti-feminist alliance that has become a core belief of right-wing parties all around the world. It has creeped into the mainstream with figures like Andrew Tate who fulfill the role of recruiting young men for even more extreme anti-feminist, far-right content.
This was the background noise that these young men grew up in. Many of the influencers they followed would tell them endlessly how feminism is to be blamed for bad games (during GamerGate) and - in general - how feminism is to be blamed for most ills of modern society. That young men were effed over by capitalism and patriarchy was - of course - deliberately omitted.
I agree with you. But I have another blame to this: the far right is the only political side that works on young men, especially on the romantic side of things.
Feminist is the other group that talks about sexuality and men/women relationships. Their fight is the good one, but they vomited men when it comes to #metoo and the consequences, and sometimes men were even excluded.
The outcome is that when you’re a men struggling with women, and this is especially a problem with gamers, long time single men, and young men discovering everything about this kind of things, when you’re struggling, feminism is basically abandoning you and sometimes even blaming you.
The only solution you can find about this is from far right with the most toxic and conservative philosophy there is. But it is the only one you can find, as a man, to try to get better about this. Or at least it was.
Those men were politicaly abandoned. And even here on lemmy you can easily read about people arguing that if a man can’t find a woman, it’s because he is a shitty person and not respectful of women.
So indeed on the one hand the far right led a political fight for this result. But on the other hand no one else was fighting on this ground. The left need to stand up and fight this fight too, rather than to send people seeking help to the far right.
I mostly agree with you, but not with this…
feminism is basically abandoning you and sometimes even blaming you.
Yes, that’s because feminism is a movement for the emancipation of women. Why should a group that is fighting for its own emancipation waste its limited resources for another group that is not fighting on their own? For better or worse, there is no political or ideological group out there which isn’t prioritizing the interests of its own members first and foremost. So why should feminism be any different? Why should women have to do the work for the men who - for whatever reason - aren’t acting in their own interests?
Yes, the left has offered no coherent answer to the problems of young men, but it isn’t the case that they offered no answers at all: Brotherhood and comradeship, international solidarity, self-organization and the fight against the oppressors have been core values of the left for ages. Unfortunately the left was ground to dust by capitalism and the last remnants of unions and other such movements which were always meant to empower individuals are struggling. They recently saw an upsurge again, but it remains to be seen if they can make a difference in the long run.
Unfortunately as long as men, such as the gamers you mention, sit behind the computer screen and think that good things should come to them without them having to do something themselves, they will always fall for the far-right’s false promises of power and riches.
Yes, that’s because feminism is a movement for the emancipation of women.
Pretty sure intersectionality is a big part of modern feminism.
That’s true and I am a big fan of it, but in order to find a place within insectional feminism, men have to create them. Men’s Lib is one of those places.
I would agree that it’s on liberal men, especially ones who had a “toxic” past and therefore can relate to the experience, to reach out, create media and engage in conversations.
You see, that’s exactly the kind of discourse that leave a highway for fascist to convert those people. Your wrote all this text to basically say fuck you to these men, I won’t help you, help yourself.
Now the far right does tell these men what to do, unlike the left. Obviously they will go with them, because that’s the only support they get.
Feminist movement will not succeed if it doesn’t incorporate men. And women need to be involved in creating a model for men. Otherwise men will simply fall back on the conservative misogyny like they’re doing, and this model do have something for women. Feminist won’t like it though.
I don’t like it either. I like the feminist model. But there’s absolutely nothing for men within it. And this is causing the backlash we can see today.
BTW individual responsibility is the liberal philosophy. Phylosophy that is perfectly fine with fascism if it must come to it. Fascists understand it perfectly, and their misogynistic philosophy is full of individualism. Feminism will not win if it embrace individualism.
I like the feminist model. But there’s absolutely nothing for men within it.
You seem to not be very familiar with feminism. Most obvious one is that feminism wants to give man and women a choice when it comes to their role in society. Like most liberal “leftist” movement it’s about empowering the individual to be able to live a life that makes them happy by overcoming societal structures.
I don’t know where you live to have such a narrow definition of it. And it certainly is true for some feminist groups. But feminism is a diverse movement. And some of them are definitely not open to men.
When you can read that the heterosexual couple must end because it’s based on domination and it enforces patriarchy, at best it’s a poor choice of words.
I don’t know where you live to have such a narrow definition of it.
I didn’t give you a definition of feminism to beginn with, so not sure what you are talking about. I gave you an example of an aspect of feminism that clearly benefits men.
And some of them are definitely not open to men.
Sure, and some feminist believe that all piv sex is rape and than some others that trans-women are not women. Like you said, feminism is diverse and there are fringe opinions and genuine crazy people. But don’t you think it’s rather biased to define the whole movement by the most fringe elements of it?
When you can read that the heterosexual couple must end because it’s based on domination and it enforces patriarchy, a
Do you think that is a popular opinion with people considering themselves feminist or do you think it’s rather radical extreme position hold by a few and refuted by the majority?
I don’t know the sociology of the people who consider themselves feminists. I read and talk quite some with people, women in fact, who are activists. A published article that defend or promote feminist is activist by definition.
I’ve never seen a moderate feminist article. Would you have one that I can read?
Notice that I didn’t say every feminist was extremist. Some are obviously more moderate than others. But by its nature, feminism is radical. The problem is that men are generally considered allies at best. They’re not included. They’re often excluded.
If some feminists include men, I’ll very gladly learn about them, because I’ve never have before. And I consider myself informed.
Ok, stay blind if you will. There’s no problem. We will never know why men are turning fascist and mysogyne I guess.
You want to shine a light and help me out of blindness by pointing out where you disagree?
I disagree when you say that people should help themselves.
I am sorry that you do not see my POV and with the danger to repeat myself: In order to get help, people need to seek help. It requires action. And that’s the same for everyone: Men and women.
That’s why places like Men’s Lib exist: Some men took action and created a forum for men to discuss such matters, but these things will not come to someone who doesn’t seek it.
Hey, just look at the article. Those men are looking for help, and they are finding it. It’s just the far right that gives it. And here people are blinding themselves and pretending there is nothing more to do about it.
This place is a great start. It is what is needed. It’s late to the party, but better late than never.
And it won’t be enough.
We absolutely need to be doing more on this front and I think the best solution is actually pretty simple: men should read feminist literature (or discourse) that has their interests in mind. If you take nearly any one of these people and make them read bell hooks (this is the hard part), it will almost certainly change their lives for the better. What’s more, a lot of that just comes down to having their pain validated and it’s relation to patriarchy exposed.
First you would have to actually write feminist books that are targeting angry young men
At the risk of oversimplifying, I don’t think men need to read feminist literature. Nothing wrong if you do, but I think men in general need to stop smelling their own farts and take a long, hard, and uncomfortable look in the mirror.
Figure out who exactly it is you want to be. What traits does this version of yourself have? Chances are, ‘intolerant shit sack’ aren’t the words we want to describe ourselves with. Then we start to ask if we are said shit sack, and if so, how do we stop from being one.
The point I am trying to make is that we far too often focus on small things, and lose sight of the big picture.
Your point is basically: why don’t all assholes just stop being assholes. That is not how any of this works.
No, my point is to stop being an asshole, we need to want to change, and the way we do that is through self-reflection and identifying where we need to change.
If our vision of who we want to be and who we actually are don’t align we need to start self improvement and punching items off the list we’ve created.
No, my point is to stop being an asshole,
That is what I’m saying - and that is not how it works. We need first to help people to not become assholes in the first place and second help people change. Why? If nothing else for pure selfish reason.
Thanks for the clarification; I actually missed what you meant, and I agree with you
I don’t know how we stop them in the first place though. You have to get everyone to buy into a concerted approach to make a systemic change.
I’m legit curious if you’ve got ideas on how to get there. How do you convince 1B dudes to not listen to Tate’s messaging, for instance.
You need to create media tailored to them but with progressive message. There is no one size fits them all approach and I would say no receipy. In general it has to be an artist who understands their life experience rather well and has the skills to make content they will enjoy. People like Contrapoints and Hasan definitely have some success with reaching that audience.
Unfortunately, the situation is worse than that. Progressives need more than just better content. There is a ton of negative messaging about males coming from the left. Much of it well-deserved, of course, but if you take a young man and give him a choice between a group that treats him as the villain and another group that treats him as the hero… Which is he likely to gravitate towards?
We need a third way, not just more of the same.
I think men in general need to stop smelling their own farts and take a long, hard, and uncomfortable look in the mirror.
Figure out who exactly it is you want to be. What traits does this version of yourself have? Chances are, ‘intolerant shit sack’ aren’t the words we want to describe ourselves with.
I think this mentality is why so many men have a problem with feminism. When you start your conversation with “you’re the problem”, you’re going to alienate the group you’re attempting to reach out to. Men have real problems that deserve to be noticed and recognized, and not all of them are a result of patriarchal culture. Telling them that they’re to blame for their problems because they’re “intolerant shit sacks” is just going to convince them that the problem is feminism.
When you start your conversation with “you’re the problem”, you’re going to alienate the group you’re attempting to reach out to.
Valid. However, my vitriol stems primarily from having been a shit sack at one point. It’s painful to see many guys suffer through the same thing. Most of which, may not be as lucky as I was and actually clue in and want to change, or will struggle to change but be unable to due to lack of support or guidance.
Men have real problems that deserve to be noticed and recognized, and not all of them are a result of patriarchal culture
Again, on the nose, and while we must acknowledge and validate these issues, we absolutely must not let ourselves wallow or let these issues limit or define us.
Thanks for sharing
Maybe it’s shitty pop politics and it isn’t only just feminism or any other hot marketed divisive-styled news topic, it’s all the pop politics, whether they are left or right.
I’m convinced people hate the pop news system and are too consumed in it to understand that’s their enemy and not the topics that the news markets. I swear mass media is building anti LGBT and anti feminism on purpose by never shutting the fuck up about it. In turn people blame feminists and LGBT when it’s the news system shoving shit in people’s faces and gaslighting everyone to hate everyone.
Marketing is the enemy of all of us.
Not saying you are wrong. In my view, having grown up under the system of being a disposable male, seeing something like “mens mental health day cancelled because of lack of female representation” https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/nov/17/row-after-university-of-york-cancels-international-mens-day-event is right on par with what I grew up with and honestly what we should be working against.
I do agree media has their hand on the scale making things worse. That said, media isn’t the sole contributor to the problem. Foisting the responsibility onto an amplifier ignores the baseline sentiment.
I think it goes deeper.
Overall wage growth has remained stagnant for a while, but we are seeing greater wage equality and an increase in education requirements for jobs. I wouldn’t be surprised if the economic conditions for high-school educated men dropped significantly and the economic conditions for college educated men remained stagnant.
So if you are a working class white male angry at the system, you may end up angry that all these women came in to change the system for them instead of at the economic elites not paying their fair share.
And they may hear stories about how men a few generations ago were still “kings of their homes”, where women were unable to leave bad situations. The power sounds a lot nicer than today.
So you’ve got a lot of young guys looking at the old system and wanting that.
I don’t want the old system but I sure am fed up with all the middle class factions bickering while the billionaires fuck us in all holes at once.
And every time I bring up wealth inequality and try to point out the ultra rich are the real enemy, people just dismiss and ignore me. The lives of every single marginalized person would be unequivocally improved with additional wealth, but I can’t for the life of me get a leftie to understand that. Instead bathroom policies and diversity quotas are apparently the priority.
So you might think I’d be a candidate for the far right to recruit …
But they’re ten times worse about wealth inequality, the idiots actually believe the job-makers and trickle down bullshit. And the wealth of every single broke-ass young man would be unequivocally improved through more taxes on the rich and on corporations and UBI, but I can’t for the life of me get a rightoid to understand that. Instead ruining the lives of trans people is apparently the priority.
So where do I go? The right are too stupid to know what’s good for them, and the left are too stupid to pick the right fight.
I’d say they’re doing it to themselves. Feminism doesn’t come across as inclusive, and has a “fall in line or get left behind” mentality.
Even something dumb like Sokka’s character growth from being a sexist 12 year old to respecting & appreciating women was said to have gotten removed from Netflix’s Avatar TLA remake.
At some point, that rigidity is going to push people away, and it appears that it didn’t take much to push people to villainize feminism.
I’d say they’re doing it to themselves. Feminism doesn’t come across as inclusive, and has a “fall in line or get left behind” mentality.
And on this I’d say I blame the parents most of all. I consider myself a feminist and grew up in an extended family of strong female figures. At no point was feminism (the word) discussed. What was, was an understanding that women are equal to men and deserve everything that a man has be it good or bad.
The problem is that many people fell on feminism as an ideal to latch on to without better understanding and espousing the core principles behind it.
Fast forward to now where I am a 46 year old man with a daughter and 2 boys I have far more concern for the boys than the girl and I make sure as often as possible to stress the principles of feminism and not just the word.
For women, “a rising tide lifts all boats”. Just as many men (I like to include myself) are doing all we can to bring women to a place of equality, women must also be beholden on themselves to ensure men do not get left behind.
No True Feminism
Well here is the fucking thing, you can never “win” with feminists cause they all slightly believe something else to be of utmost importance. Every women that does not agree is brainwashed by patriarchy but as soon as you got a penis your deviation from their believes makes you a sexist or even anti feminist. This is of course not true for all feminists, maybe its even a minority but it is a very vocal one and it does not help to have your sister be one… help😭
The right are radicalizing young men. It’s as simple as that.
On the one hand, sure, you’re not wrong. On the other, why are young men entirely passive in your analysis? “The right”, neither the talking heads nor the nebulous concept, can radicalise anyone without some level of their consent in being so radicalised.
Most certainly. They are exploiting issues in masculinity that have been here for decades.
One of the ones they like to use is the ‘strong man’ and a callback to our forefathers (eg., miners from the 1800s. Typical ‘manly’ men). There is nothing wrong with being strong, determined, or ambitious, provided you’re a decent human being beforehand. These grifters, though seem like it’s the only thing that validates a guy, and that we must achieve it no matter the cost. If we don’t, we are failures and must find someone or something to blame
To be fair, work dedicated to reaching young men from a feminist perspective has been pretty limited in recent decades.
Shoe0nHead did a great video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQv8VuLpKN4.
Yes, they are.
But…
These same men are told to go fuck themselves whenever they post about their experiences and progressives get involved in the conversation.
