People who unironically support Stalinism in the modern day are red fascists. Whether they are technically the exact same thing or not isn’t a meaningful discussion considering the commentary that Sanders is offering here. He is specifically operating within the context of modern American politics. Something average academic/armchair/larpy leftists are often completely fucking incapable of. His main use of analogizing Stalinism with Trumpism is the Cult of Personality not that they are literally the exact same thing. It is exhausting that this needs to be explained.
Sanders use of the term as a political slur wrongly directed at Trump confuses the issue, and ultimately gives capitalism a pass for its own crisis.
How does it give a pass to capitalism? Sanders himself would agree that capitalism contributed to Trumpism.
This is a deliberate falsification that is calculated to confuse political consciousness and hinder the development of revolutionary conclusions.
This is a level of paranoia suggesting actual brain damage, seek medical attention.
People who unironically support Stalinism in the modern day are red fascists.
Now, they are not. And the only reason you say they are is because liberals understanding of politics is entirely through the Marvel comic lense of there are “Good guys” and “Bad Guys” and the bad guys are foreign coded
IDK where you got that I did not write “deliberately divorcing emotion from the decision process and just looking at the facts as best I am able to understand.” … are you mixing up different replies?
The irony here is that liberals call everybody to the left of them “tankies”. Take note; this is what projection actually looks like.
There is no irony, the words “Tankie” and “Liberal” are not equivalent. Tankie is always a pejorative in response to specific stated politics. Liberal is an ideological identity that sometimes is used as a pejorative by some leftists because its an accusation that they actually secretly support capitalism. Its that you fundamentally don’t engage with the actual stated beliefs and decide that we actually believe something else entirely. Sort of like how actual liberals get called communists by fascists, nazis, and other far right conservatives.
If you wanted to say, call me a “Anarkiddy” or something that would at least be a little closer to the same thing as me calling you a Tankie. I’m not really strictly an anarchist anymore either, but still I’m infinitely closer to that than liberal.
The reason this matters is that specifically if I actually was a liberal, I wouldn’t be annoyed by Tankies and Campists using the word “liberal” as a pejorative against non-tankie/campist leftists. I’d just embrace the label.
I don’t embrace the label. I’m not a liberal. I just also don’t take the accusation from Tankies that I’m a liberal seriously anymore. I’m mostly just annoyed by the extremely boring and tiresome intellectual dishonesty.
I had the wrong text in my clip board; I meant to quote:
One can hate capitalism and also hate Stalinists.
Which is indeed a complete non-sequitor.
There is no irony, the words “Tankie” and “Liberal” are not equivalent. Tankie is always a pejorative in response to specific stated politics. Liberal is an ideological identity that sometimes is used as a pejorative by some leftists because its an accusation that they actually secretly support capitalism.
“They’re not the same because ‘tankie’ is a real ideology and ‘liberal’ is just a pejorative” is the most obviously brain-dead and stupid argument imaginable. You can’t seriously expect me to entertain in.
Its that you fundamentally don’t engage with the actual stated beliefs and decide that we actually believe something else entirely.
Hey, asshole. You called me a tankie for the sole reason that I said that Fascism and Stalinism are distinct ideologies and not interchangeable terms. Not for defending Stalinism, not even for saying it’s not as bad as Fascism, just for saying it’s a different ideology. So you can take your " Its that you fundamentally don’t engage with the actual stated beliefs and decide that we actually believe something else entirely" hypocritical bullshit, take a look in the mirror and stop projecting your own bad behavior on me.
And this is why are say your framing of the world is ultimately just Marvel ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’, because you see me say Stalinism and Fascism are different and just assume that I’m defending stalinism; because to you, they’re both just pejorative synonyms for “being a Bad Guy”, so saying Stalinism isn’t fascism is saying it isn’t “being a Bad Guy”.
If you wanted to say, call me a “Anarkiddy” or something that would at least be a little closer to the same thing as me calling you a Tankie.
In that it’s completely fucking baseless and inaccurate?
I’m not really strictly an anarchist anymore either, but still I’m infinitely closer to that than liberal.
Ok, so you’re a liberal.
I don’t embrace the label.
Don’t care, labels are descriptive, not a personal affectation.
I just also don’t take the accusation from Tankies that I’m a liberal seriously anymore.
You really need to work on the projection, hypocrite.
I’m mostly just annoyed by the extremely boring and tiresome intellectual dishonesty.
You called me a tankie for the sole reason that I said that Fascism and Stalinism are distinct ideologies and not interchangeable terms.
Maybe you aren’t a tankie, but if there was a verifiable test for the disease, I’d bet money you have it on that basis + the .ml yeah.
Not for defending Stalinism, not even for saying it’s not as bad as Fascism, just for saying it’s a different ideology.
because you see me say Stalinism and Fascism are different and just assume that I’m defending stalinism
Don’t play dumb. You are engaging in defensive apologia.
Don’t care, labels are descriptive, not a personal affectation.
No shit? I don’t embrace the label was listed as specific evidence that I wasn’t a liberal because liberals don’t care if they are called a liberal. I’d claim bad reading comprehension but that would imply you are capable of growth, its clear you have an ideological myopia and don’t want to engage in good faith.
Maybe you aren’t a tankie, but if there was a verifiable test for the disease, I’d bet money you have it on that basis + the .ml yeah.
Great, thanks for confirming it’s just a baseless pejorative you throw around based on absolutely fucking nothing. Moron
Don’t play dumb. You are engaging in defensive apologia
I literally am not, dipshit. Maybe learn to read rather than trying to tell other people what they need to say for your strawman argument to work. Moron. Keep this up and I’m just going to start claiming that you’re engaging in defensive of pedophilia. It would be just as reasonable.
Really not beating the accusation that you see everything through a “good guy, bad guy” lens.
I don’t embrace the label was listed
Don’t care if you embrace it or not.
liberals don’t care if they are called a liberal.
Some of them, do, like yourself, for example.
I’d claim bad reading comprehension but that would imply you are capable of growth
Why do reddit liberals have such dogshit attempts at dunks? You’d think, given that they immediately fall back on them whenever challenged on anything, they’d at least get good at them.
its clear you have an ideological myopia and don’t want to engage in good faith.
Once again, look in the mirror and stop projecting, dipshit. I have actually articulated a point, you have just slung personal attacks and some of the worst attempts at dunks imaginable.
Jesus fucking Christ. All of your response is about me. Every time I get into an argument with .ml users it seems the substance of the actual discussion gets lost and it just becomes boring fucking mud slinging. You guys are obsessed with ego and dunking without actually backing it up with the actual meat of your posts.
Since the label used to describe my politics seem to be your primary focus, fine, maybe there is something interesting to be discussed here: Liberals believe in the private ownership of the means of production. I do not.
If you think there are liberals who don’t believe in the private ownership of the means of production then I don’t know what to tell you. Our disagreement is not able to be reconciled.
I mean, there is nothing you could say when the ideology you cheerlead imploded on its own. Even China turned to capitalism after seeing USSR collapsed.
“Imploded on it’s own” lol confidently incorrect, the US put a lot of work into overthrowing the soviet union, and I’ve got plenty to say about it, what a moronic retort. And lol @ “china turned to capitalism” you mean the country that executes more billionaires than any other on earth? Do you think capitalism is when people trade currency for goods and services? Jesus fucking christ log off and read a book
I thought as much you would say the same tankie script ad verbatim. The CIA did not even expect the USSR to collapse so soon when it did. Even if China execute couple of billionaires, like out of how many? China produced more billionaires than the USA just before and after the pandemic. That’s not communism, is it? Having more billionaires than your rival? USSR sent and killed people for even owning less.
This is a level of paranoia suggesting actual brain damage, seek medical attention.
I think you underestimate the class consciousness of the ruling class. Bernie has been faithfully playing his assigned role to keep increasingly radicalized sections of the working class and youth within the orbit of the Democratic Party. I do not think it is a stretch to assign consciously anti-revolutionary motives to his statements, especially this stupidly anti-communist statement.
Despite my therapist not agreeing with me on politics, she thinks I am mentally fine.
How does it give a pass to capitalism? Sanders himself would agree that capitalism contributed to Trumpism.
Stalinism was a degeneration of the workers state in the Soviet Union. Fascism is an extreme counterrevolutionary form of capitalism. Assigning one (Stalinism) to the other (Trump/MAGA) is a category error. Ahisotorical and unscientific (and likelh a conscious distortion given Sanders political history and experience).
People who unironically support Stalinism in the modern day are red fascists.
The Stalinist perspective is counterrevolutionary, but it is not fascist. Ironically, most actual Stalinists will have disavowed Stalin by now following his death and Krushev’s secret speech. Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the restoration of capitalism, international Stalinists are largely reduced to trade union organizing and activist pressure groups. In the third world they routinely enter into coalitions with bourgeois nationalist governments. Edgy teenagers on the internet are not serious Stalinists.
He is specifically operating within the context of modern American politics. Something average academic/armchair/larpy leftists are often completely fucking incapable of. His main use of analogizing Stalinism with Trumpism is the Cult of Personality not that they are literally the exact same thing.
In the contact of American politics, the role of anticommunism cannot be overstated. Sanders plays into this tradition because he supports it. He could have criticized Trump’s cult of personality by referencing the fascist Mussolini (or just made it a direct statement about Trump). He chose to use the word “Stalinism” despite it being clearly inappropriate because it serves his political function.
Bernie has been faithfully playing his assigned role to keep increasingly radicalized sections of the working class and youth within the orbit of the Democratic Party.
No. This is a delusional take.
Despite my therapist not agreeing with me on politics, she thinks I am mentally fine.
She’s wrong if you genuinely think the Sanders is a pro-capitalist plant. Either that or you don’t actually believe this and you are arguing in bad faith because you actually simply dislike Sander’s openly stated politics.
Or you have not actually paid any consistent attention to Sanders at all or read up on his history before he became politically relevant.
Stalinism was a degeneration of the workers state in the Soviet Union. Fascism is an extreme counterrevolutionary form of capitalism. Assigning one (Stalinism) to the other (Trump/MAGA) is a category error. Ahisotorical and unscientific
Even if you are technically correct, none of this matters in the current political context. You are being nitpicky at best, but more likely just engaging in irrelevant intellectual masturbation/showboating. Further, this doesn’t actually explain why Sanders gives a pass to capitalism, you are just repeating the same point. Being anti-Stalinism and being open about that doesn’t make you apologetic to capitalism unless you take a very “You are with us or against us” campist perspective.
(and likelh a conscious distortion given Sanders political history and experience).
Instead of ignoring now, you are misrepresenting the context of his statement. The left in the US is currently on the backfoot. (Even with a specific notable newsworthy exception in NYC) Sanders knows that liberals and conservatives alike in the US associate Stalin vaguely with very bad things and is using that cultural association. Now, do I think this is politically effective? IDK. I suspect the problem with Sanders is generally that he is not mean enough to his opposition, and this is indeed tactical but not for reasons you are laying out. Given his history the idea that hes secretly a pro-capitalism plant is actually completely flabbergastingly stupid. Like I can’t take you seriously for saying that and I only continue this conversation due to curiosity.
Ironically, most actual Stalinists will have disavowed Stalin by now following his death and Krushev’s secret speech. Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the restoration of capitalism, international Stalinists are largely reduced to trade union organizing and activist pressure groups. In the third world they routinely enter into coalitions with bourgeois nationalist governments. Edgy teenagers on the internet are not serious Stalinists.
OK, then it sounds like they’re red fascists to me. They are fascists who just want to not be associated with fascism.
Sanders plays into this tradition because he supports it (anti-communism).
No he doesn’t. He might not support authoritarianism but he’s not an anti-communist. A lazy example: he has defended Castro before.
He could have criticized Trump’s cult of personality by referencing the fascist Mussolini (or just made it a direct statement about Trump).
He’s compared him to Mussolini already. In 2020, “We have a president now who is a pathological liar. We have a president who is trying to undermine democracy. We have a president who admires authoritarian figures. I mean, it’s not an exaggeration to compare him to Mussolini.” Hes going to compare him to any historical figure views as authoritarian, because Sanders is anti-authoritarian.
People who unironically support Stalinism in the modern day are red fascists. Whether they are technically the exact same thing or not isn’t a meaningful discussion considering the commentary that Sanders is offering here. He is specifically operating within the context of modern American politics. Something average academic/armchair/larpy leftists are often completely fucking incapable of. His main use of analogizing Stalinism with Trumpism is the Cult of Personality not that they are literally the exact same thing. It is exhausting that this needs to be explained.
How does it give a pass to capitalism? Sanders himself would agree that capitalism contributed to Trumpism.
This is a level of paranoia suggesting actual brain damage, seek medical attention.
Now, they are not. And the only reason you say they are is because liberals understanding of politics is entirely through the Marvel comic lense of there are “Good guys” and “Bad Guys” and the bad guys are foreign coded
Yes they are.
One can hate capitalism and also hate Stalinists. The “good vs bad guy” ideology is just projection on your part.
I could nitpick and state I’m not a liberal as well but whatever tankies call every other non-tankie leftist a liberal so who fucking cares.
No, they are not.
OK. Non-sequitor.
Nope; learn what projection means.
The irony here is that liberals call everybody to the left of them “tankies”. Take note; this is what projection actually looks like.
IDK where you got that I did not write “deliberately divorcing emotion from the decision process and just looking at the facts as best I am able to understand.” … are you mixing up different replies?
There is no irony, the words “Tankie” and “Liberal” are not equivalent. Tankie is always a pejorative in response to specific stated politics. Liberal is an ideological identity that sometimes is used as a pejorative by some leftists because its an accusation that they actually secretly support capitalism. Its that you fundamentally don’t engage with the actual stated beliefs and decide that we actually believe something else entirely. Sort of like how actual liberals get called communists by fascists, nazis, and other far right conservatives.
If you wanted to say, call me a “Anarkiddy” or something that would at least be a little closer to the same thing as me calling you a Tankie. I’m not really strictly an anarchist anymore either, but still I’m infinitely closer to that than liberal.
The reason this matters is that specifically if I actually was a liberal, I wouldn’t be annoyed by Tankies and Campists using the word “liberal” as a pejorative against non-tankie/campist leftists. I’d just embrace the label.
I don’t embrace the label. I’m not a liberal. I just also don’t take the accusation from Tankies that I’m a liberal seriously anymore. I’m mostly just annoyed by the extremely boring and tiresome intellectual dishonesty.
I had the wrong text in my clip board; I meant to quote:
Which is indeed a complete non-sequitor.
“They’re not the same because ‘tankie’ is a real ideology and ‘liberal’ is just a pejorative” is the most obviously brain-dead and stupid argument imaginable. You can’t seriously expect me to entertain in.
Hey, asshole. You called me a tankie for the sole reason that I said that Fascism and Stalinism are distinct ideologies and not interchangeable terms. Not for defending Stalinism, not even for saying it’s not as bad as Fascism, just for saying it’s a different ideology. So you can take your " Its that you fundamentally don’t engage with the actual stated beliefs and decide that we actually believe something else entirely" hypocritical bullshit, take a look in the mirror and stop projecting your own bad behavior on me.
And this is why are say your framing of the world is ultimately just Marvel ‘good guys’ and ‘bad guys’, because you see me say Stalinism and Fascism are different and just assume that I’m defending stalinism; because to you, they’re both just pejorative synonyms for “being a Bad Guy”, so saying Stalinism isn’t fascism is saying it isn’t “being a Bad Guy”.
In that it’s completely fucking baseless and inaccurate?
Ok, so you’re a liberal.
Don’t care, labels are descriptive, not a personal affectation.
You really need to work on the projection, hypocrite.
Then you should stop engaging in it, liberal.
Maybe you aren’t a tankie, but if there was a verifiable test for the disease, I’d bet money you have it on that basis + the .ml yeah.
Don’t play dumb. You are engaging in defensive apologia.
No shit? I don’t embrace the label was listed as specific evidence that I wasn’t a liberal because liberals don’t care if they are called a liberal. I’d claim bad reading comprehension but that would imply you are capable of growth, its clear you have an ideological myopia and don’t want to engage in good faith.
Great, thanks for confirming it’s just a baseless pejorative you throw around based on absolutely fucking nothing. Moron
I literally am not, dipshit. Maybe learn to read rather than trying to tell other people what they need to say for your strawman argument to work. Moron. Keep this up and I’m just going to start claiming that you’re engaging in defensive of pedophilia. It would be just as reasonable.
Really not beating the accusation that you see everything through a “good guy, bad guy” lens.
Don’t care if you embrace it or not.
Some of them, do, like yourself, for example.
Why do reddit liberals have such dogshit attempts at dunks? You’d think, given that they immediately fall back on them whenever challenged on anything, they’d at least get good at them.
Once again, look in the mirror and stop projecting, dipshit. I have actually articulated a point, you have just slung personal attacks and some of the worst attempts at dunks imaginable.
Jesus fucking Christ. All of your response is about me. Every time I get into an argument with .ml users it seems the substance of the actual discussion gets lost and it just becomes boring fucking mud slinging. You guys are obsessed with ego and dunking without actually backing it up with the actual meat of your posts.
Since the label used to describe my politics seem to be your primary focus, fine, maybe there is something interesting to be discussed here: Liberals believe in the private ownership of the means of production. I do not.
If you think there are liberals who don’t believe in the private ownership of the means of production then I don’t know what to tell you. Our disagreement is not able to be reconciled.
Log off and read a book
I only use this account while at work and largely don’t use any social media outside of schedules of face to face meet ups.
I read plenty, just not what you read probably.
Says the terminally online tankie troll.
Go touch grass and meet some friends irl. Oh wait…
Liberals really have nothing except endlessly spewing the same dozen insults at anyone who disagrees with them.
Tankies really have nothing except endlessly cheerlead a dead ideology.
Wait, so you don’t have any friends irl.
Lol @ “dead ideology” from the folks who lost to Trump twice
I mean, there is nothing you could say when the ideology you cheerlead imploded on its own. Even China turned to capitalism after seeing USSR collapsed.
Jesus, how bad is history education these days?
“Imploded on it’s own” lol confidently incorrect, the US put a lot of work into overthrowing the soviet union, and I’ve got plenty to say about it, what a moronic retort. And lol @ “china turned to capitalism” you mean the country that executes more billionaires than any other on earth? Do you think capitalism is when people trade currency for goods and services? Jesus fucking christ log off and read a book
I thought as much you would say the same tankie script ad verbatim. The CIA did not even expect the USSR to collapse so soon when it did. Even if China execute couple of billionaires, like out of how many? China produced more billionaires than the USA just before and after the pandemic. That’s not communism, is it? Having more billionaires than your rival? USSR sent and killed people for even owning less.
Go touch some grass. Go and meet actual people.
Yup, more of the same rote insults. With some incoherent “no, u!” thrown in.
Go make some friends in real life, if you can.
And now you’ve exhausted the short list of insults and have to repeat the same ones over and over.
I think you underestimate the class consciousness of the ruling class. Bernie has been faithfully playing his assigned role to keep increasingly radicalized sections of the working class and youth within the orbit of the Democratic Party. I do not think it is a stretch to assign consciously anti-revolutionary motives to his statements, especially this stupidly anti-communist statement.
Despite my therapist not agreeing with me on politics, she thinks I am mentally fine.
Stalinism was a degeneration of the workers state in the Soviet Union. Fascism is an extreme counterrevolutionary form of capitalism. Assigning one (Stalinism) to the other (Trump/MAGA) is a category error. Ahisotorical and unscientific (and likelh a conscious distortion given Sanders political history and experience).
The Stalinist perspective is counterrevolutionary, but it is not fascist. Ironically, most actual Stalinists will have disavowed Stalin by now following his death and Krushev’s secret speech. Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the restoration of capitalism, international Stalinists are largely reduced to trade union organizing and activist pressure groups. In the third world they routinely enter into coalitions with bourgeois nationalist governments. Edgy teenagers on the internet are not serious Stalinists.
In the contact of American politics, the role of anticommunism cannot be overstated. Sanders plays into this tradition because he supports it. He could have criticized Trump’s cult of personality by referencing the fascist Mussolini (or just made it a direct statement about Trump). He chose to use the word “Stalinism” despite it being clearly inappropriate because it serves his political function.
No. This is a delusional take.
She’s wrong if you genuinely think the Sanders is a pro-capitalist plant. Either that or you don’t actually believe this and you are arguing in bad faith because you actually simply dislike Sander’s openly stated politics.
Or you have not actually paid any consistent attention to Sanders at all or read up on his history before he became politically relevant.
Even if you are technically correct, none of this matters in the current political context. You are being nitpicky at best, but more likely just engaging in irrelevant intellectual masturbation/showboating. Further, this doesn’t actually explain why Sanders gives a pass to capitalism, you are just repeating the same point. Being anti-Stalinism and being open about that doesn’t make you apologetic to capitalism unless you take a very “You are with us or against us” campist perspective.
Instead of ignoring now, you are misrepresenting the context of his statement. The left in the US is currently on the backfoot. (Even with a specific notable newsworthy exception in NYC) Sanders knows that liberals and conservatives alike in the US associate Stalin vaguely with very bad things and is using that cultural association. Now, do I think this is politically effective? IDK. I suspect the problem with Sanders is generally that he is not mean enough to his opposition, and this is indeed tactical but not for reasons you are laying out. Given his history the idea that hes secretly a pro-capitalism plant is actually completely flabbergastingly stupid. Like I can’t take you seriously for saying that and I only continue this conversation due to curiosity.
OK, then it sounds like they’re red fascists to me. They are fascists who just want to not be associated with fascism.
No he doesn’t. He might not support authoritarianism but he’s not an anti-communist. A lazy example: he has defended Castro before.
He’s compared him to Mussolini already. In 2020, “We have a president now who is a pathological liar. We have a president who is trying to undermine democracy. We have a president who admires authoritarian figures. I mean, it’s not an exaggeration to compare him to Mussolini.” Hes going to compare him to any historical figure views as authoritarian, because Sanders is anti-authoritarian.