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- cross-posted to:
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original post: https://mk.moth.zone/notes/a8zer7ypj6uv02ka
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It’s a good idea until you consider the fact that a Raspberry Pi will be astronomically more power efficient.
If you think in flops per watt, maybe a little bit, but not a lot. Do you have one or two good procs for almost free, or half a dozen new sbcs at $100 each? Takes a while to save back that amount in power.
Power consumption is a massive reason to really not do that. Its cheap for a reason, its takes a shitload of power to be shit and you will pay more in energy than you save in hardware unless its only powered on for short periods of time - a server typically isn’t.
This is actually something that applies to cheap products too. Was in Asda a little while ago and saw 2 LED bulbs with the same lumen rating. Cheaper one used 3w more and you only saved £1. Running it for 8 hours a day for a year would cost double that saving in electricity. For a server you are looking at almost £2 per watt each year. Does that ewaste look so good to you now?
Some things are absolutely worth getting second hand, but you really should be careful considering the power cost as well.
Quick edit: If you don’t need it running 24/7, consider something like AWS too. I love selfhosting but if its not running much it might be cheaper to not bother buying hardware.
these shitty win8 laptops are surprisingly low power and efficient though.
Are you living on a space station? What is this shitload of power? A whole 60 watts? Are you rationing AA batteries to run your household?
What is it with the bullshit fanciful rationalizations people come up with to consume consume consume?
60w is like £120 a year, these costs add up to the point that low spec servers pretty much always cost more in energy than hardware. Of course it also depends on where you live and your energy rates.
You could buy a 20 year old server that is going to use 800w, or you could buy a mini PC that is probably more powerful and uses like 10-20w.
Then again, I used to live somewhere that energy was included in the rent so short of starting a bitcoin farm usage wouldn’t really get noticed too much. In that case it would make sense to just go cheap hardware.
I’m glad I don’t have these addictions people seem to have. “I need a computer to measure how much water my toilet uses!” “I need a computer in my refrigerator!” etc
We’ve passed the useful stage of computing, we are now in the “personal issues” phase.
And that’s 60W while charging. In idle with the screen off, low end laptops often consume as little as 2-3W. Which is not far off from a pi.
But I want to be cool and awesome! I want to constantly re-learn how to do basic things over and over because TECHNOLOGY!!!
https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=23718473&cid=65450499
And I think China is evil and dumb… but I click “add to cart” on aliexpress in my sleep!
But I am deeply worried about totally renewable energy consumption by buying an endless stream of disposable baubles!
(Read above in some kind of sarcastic tone)
Are you living on a space station? What is this shitload of power?
Some of us live off-grid and make every Watt-hour we consume. So it may be that one man’s fanciful bullshit is another man’s daily life. For context, this is my 2,461st day offgrid.
A whole 60 watts?
Over the last 30 days I’ve averaged 2.01kWh/day, or an average constant consumption of 84w. All in. And that’s on the high end for folks in similar use cases. In this scenario adding in another 60w would be significant (ie, impossible for my rig during winter months).
As Sesame Street taught showed us it’s a matter of perspective.
Um if you’re living with computers are you really „off the grid“ computers require the grid to be manufactured. If you’re off the grid because you worry about the way the worlds going and you think you’ll need to be off the grid to survive I wouldn’t make having access to computers part of the plan.
This is generally not true. If you are using your laptop as a home server chances are it’s going to be idling 99% of the time and laptops are generally pretty good in terms of idle power draw if you manage to disable the screen (or just disconnect it, take it off and find a way to repurpose it)
And in terms of environmental impact saving a laptop from landfill is definitely better since the majority of a computers impact is from the co2 emmissions from the manufacturing process. And this isn’t taking into account the likely ethical considerations such as supporting terrible mining practices for resources like cobalt.
This is generally not true. A small server running on an old pi when idling will have hardly any draw. It will cost literally pennies to run for the whole year.
A rasperry pi idles at about 2 watts vs a laptop that idles at about 4 watts. At $0.30/kwh (a very high price for electricity) you would save 5 dollars per year on electricity. This laptop trades blows with the rasperry pi and costs half the price (55$ aud vs over 200$ aud for a brand new pi 5) Even this second hand one costs 110$ aud which is twice the cost. With that cost of electricity it would take 11 years in order to break even. And that’s only if you consider monetary cost and not environmental cost.
That’s not the point here. People probably do not need a pi 5. There are many other pi devices (and similar boards) with significantly less draw.
A RPi is going to be smaller, quieter, and 10x more energy efficient though…
There are probably a dozen things you can do to save energy on orders of magnitude higher than using a pi.
Then do them. It’s still not going to decrease the energy use of your server.
Its all fun and games until the power bill arrives. Performance per watt is important, please look at that first. Don’t be me.
The power constraints are more important to most than the size constraints honestly.
Yeah, my pi sips energy very sparingly. Even an old laptop is going to be drawing more just to power itself, never mind what I run on it.
That said, pis are a poor value proposition nowadays and there are better options for the same use case
Where are these cheap e waste laptops with gpio and actually low power?
No gpio but old centrino laptops make excellent low power servers. My primary server was a first gen centrino from 2011 up until recently and I think it only used 12w idle after putting a SSD in there. Had it’s own UPS built in.
Digging through e-waste bins is one of my hobbies.
What kind of place do you go to to find these things? Sometimes I get really lucky (see my post history about my wonderful new printer), but if I could increase my odds that would be cool.
I’m just lucky enough to have one at my apartment building, and very wasteful neighbors.
Back when I lived in a (quite nice) apartment building I was constantly surprised at the things people threw out. Perfectly good furniture but also stuff like perfectly functional printers, artwork, computer cases…
If you go near college housing there’s usually a given day of the year (either moving day or an official cleanup day) when tons of people put out stuff they don’t want to bother with keeping/moving. It’s Hippie Christmas baby!
It’s not just the size constraint. The power usage is significant…
If you have the lid closed, you’re looking at 3 to 15 watts to have a laptop running in the background doing some basic server shit.
Maybe a little more under high load, but those are going to be intermittent and not constant.
I’m just saying it’s not that much more electricity usage, and the recycling more than offsets the CO2.
If you have the lid closed, you’re looking at 3 to 15 watts to have a laptop running in the background doing some basic server shit.
Not all laptops make effective use of power with the lid closed, sadly. Not saying this as a correction, but for others to know that they need to make sure these settings are available in the bios of the system they are buying.
Laptops are not generally designed to run like that with a closed lid. Heat dissipation is designed around the idea the laptop is open and some of it is through the keyboard surface. The lid closed would change that.
Systems can of course be setup to power off the display but for server/service uses open laptops may not be efficient space wise.
Having said that if the scenario is low power use the heat dissipation may not be a major issue. But if there is an unremovable battery i’d still be concerned about heat dissipation with the lid closed and even just the battery itself regardless of heat dissipiation.
Just remove the lid entirely.
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Not so sure about the last part. It takes ehhh about 3kg of c02 to produce 1 Watt for a year. Carbon footprint to build a laptop is about 200kg or so, but you’re not offsetting one of those you’re offsetting the raspberry PI you WOULD have bought which is just a small fraction of that. After a year or 2 you’ve almost certainly burned through your c02 savings if it’s on all the time.
A raspberry pi is not as efficient as people are claiming. They need up to 25W PSU for a reason. Laptops can idle lower than that certainly. Something like a MacBook Air M1 would idle in single digit territory, as would any netbook basically ever made. Only really high performance or older laptops have idle power draw issues since battery life is a major selling point of a laptop. Said laptop is probably also faster than a raspberry pi. The people building Pi clusters are really not doing themselves any favors with power efficiency.
Nah no way does the average ewaste tier laptop use less power than a raspberry pi for any given task. The power consumption floor for a laptop may be lower than the rpi ceiling but that’s not a fair comparison
Benchmark it and tell me. The truth is that most RPis are made using older process nodes to reduce costs. Laptops are often made using the best avaliable process node and core design. A modern raspberry pi 5 uses a 16nm processor with Cortex-A76 design from 2018. A laptop in 2015 would be using 14nm Broadwell processors from Intel. This was a time when 15W U series processors were gaining popularity, so sustained load power consumption is quite low. A 2015 laptop is 10 years old, and wouldn’t run Windows 11, so will be ewaste this year. Same with a lot of 8 year old machines actually.
Laptop performance when closed is quite variable, but depending on where you live, each 10W of idle consumption 24/7/365 could cost you somewhere around $20/yr (assumes @$0.20/kWh, YMMV). This isn’t overwhelming on it’s own, but it is “cost difference between a junked laptop and a Raspberry Pi” kinda money.
And you are often paying 140-200 for a pi nowadays to make it have the same usability as a laptop (pi, power supply, sata hat, data drive because SD cards simply fail after a while under server IO) while you can get cheap used laptops for 0-100.
So unless you are running it for more than half a decade (which rarely happens with selfhosters for a main server), you are probably spending more in total on the pi.
Get them from where? I always read about these basically-free computers but have yet to see one
I know its not the most ideal place, but FB marketplace where I live has lots of old PCs/Laptops for under 50 eur. I would probably start there personally.
Facebook marketplace, kjiji, etc
Everyone here thinks their shit tier 2018 laptop is made of gold or something.
‘Gaming laptop, only used occasionally. Been sitting around for a while because my kid’s got a new hobby. £1,200 no offers. I know what I’ve got’
The pictured laptop has a Centrino sticker on it and looks like it’s been used to dig a garden
Same here in México, a lot of people think their dual core Intel from 2011 (and even older than that) is still worth more than +$100USD. Even worse, companies usually want to resell devices to recover some of the cost, so even that option is kind of expensive. I’m waiting for some friends that can buy company devices for cheap so they can resell them to me for cheap too lol
I wouldn’t touch Facebook with a 10’ ethernet cable. Haven’t heard of kjiji, I’ll have to check it out.
Haven’t heard of kjiji, I’ll have to check it out.
It’s essentially Craigslist, but in Canada.
Craigslist doesn’t really have a user base here.
Did someone fall asleep on the keyboard when they came up with kjiji?
I think it’s secretly Khajiit’s new marketplace for wares if you have the coin
Also, Raspberry Pi first got popular because of the size and cost. Now it’s popular because it’s popular. Not hating on them, I think they’re cool, but they’re not cheap any more. Especially with the scalping.
Getting x86_64 based systems is going to mean much less headache. Unless you truly truly need the size I wouldn’t consider getting a Pi or other SBC. Just go to literally any used marketplace (Facebook, Craigslist, etc) and get anything.
but they’re not cheap any more
People say this, but they really are still cheap.
The original Raspberry Pi Model B launched for £22 in 2012. The entry level Raspberry Pi 5 is £46, but adjusted for inflation that’s only £32 in 2012 money. So only £10 more expensive in real terms.
Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W is only £14.40, which is only £10 in 2012 money. Compare this to the original Raspberry Pi Model A, which launched for £16.
People look at the headline cost of the high end RPi 5s (£115 for the 16GB model, £76 for the 8GB), but fail to recognise that there was nothing comparable to these in the Raspberry Pi lineup before, and these are not the only models in the Raspberry Pi lineup now.
There was the supply shortage price spike, they really were stupid expensive then if you supported the hoarder/scalpers.
Since that has cleared… most of the Pi price increases (in inflation adjusted dollars) can be attributed to improved features like more RAM, or people acknowledging that having a good dedicated $20 power supply is preferable to dealing with the flakiness of that old phone charger you found under the bed.
I had the accounting self hosted web app on it until I was too lazy for accounting and now I am in so called hot water and must make bunch of shit up using mathematical apparatus
But it worked really well for a year or so
Add use of gpio to reasons to use pie.
While gpio adaptors are available for pc. The software architecture is not as well rounded and documented.
So for any complex hardware project development. Gpio based SBCs are often essential.
So space, low power and gpio development.
Otherwise yep old laptop or even desktop can be cheaper and more able.
But overall. The wide software support and documentation for hardware connectivity is a bloody good reason to keep pie supported.
I’m setting 2 up to control the hot water and solar dump system on my shared little boat. As I want to link 12v Lifepo4 batt charging with the solar dump and visually impaired control for AC and diesel heating of the water.
Pies really are the best option to play with. While low power and easy to design a unique low vision interface.
Also UK boat safty. Is issuing warning about permanently connected li ion batts on boats. So it is likely setting up a laptop to manage this while not on the boat. Will be banned in the near future.
Only an issue for UK boating but worth considering the risks of leaving laptops to run when not observed.
I bet you could instead use an ESP32 for GPIO and just connect it remotely to whatever Pi alternative you use (if needed at all). Turning some switches on and off while monitoring input values doesn’t sound very computationally intensive.
Yep that can work. But ignores all the well documented and supported development community comments I pointed to while also indicating other options exist.
As for.
Turning some switches on and off while monitoring input values doesn’t sound very computationally intensive.
You realise IO wise that describes your keyboard and mouse interaction on the most powerful gaming PCs.
It’s what you do with the results that matters.
GPIO supports a fair bit more then the on and off input and output. It’s slow compared to other systems. But has multiple serial protocols of differing types. Simple GUI displays can also be run via gpio connections. Low Res Lidar devices are available connected via the spi connections with all the data processed on that host PC.
So no gpio use can require all levels of processing power post connection. It is after all designed for experimentation and prototyping.
For my project. You clost to correct. I just use a simple GUI displays with xorg. So a pie 0 is plenty. And way lower power then the other options. It links to a pwm controller to power 2 12v 200w water tank heaters a relay for a 750w AC heater. Bluetooth connection to a BMS and solar MPPT. While operating multiple temp sensors measuring at different levels. And warning of legionaries risk. If the tank has not been over 65c in 14 days (actually 10 days but I’m over careful given the health status of my brother and I).
So much less then the tiny Pie 0 would not be able to cope but mainly due to the need for the vision impaired interface. Speaking functions dose not take much. But doing so without being unusably slow is about the limit of a pie 0.
Any photos of the boat and setup?
ATM the boat is being rebuilt inside. Replacing everything.
So the system is in bits. Hidden in the engine bay.
I have old pics of the boat before we regilt all the electrics etc. if it’s the shape etc your interested in.
If your a Brit who knows the canals. Think small sprinter but with a flat hull. It’s not actually a springer but same steel standards etc.
Not a Brit. But did live in UK for a number of years. So can complete the image I think!
Alternative. Cheap android box and coreelec.
You can have them for about 20 bucks. Have minimal power consumption. And small power factor. They also have ARM architecture.
They are good for low power applications.
damn you all, now I impulse bought an old thin client for 30EUR :-) but, fwiw: I mostly use RPi for my purposes, up to RPi4; RPi 5 I think missed the mark, with its active cooling requirement and power use. (and price…) the only use case where an i86 alternative is justified is my jellyfin setup (where realtime transcoding is needed).
As a Pi Hole, the Pi 5 doesn’t require active cooling.
Now, I am running a separate Pi 5 with a HAILO 8 for Frigate monitoring of a bunch of video streams, and it does need a little air movement, so I built a box with a 200mm fan pulling through a filter and I just threw all my Pis in there along with the Frigate rig so they stay nice and cool… I’m thinking that I should probably switch Frigate over to a Pi 4 for the h.264 hardware decoder, but the 5 is working fine for my needs and endless tweaking gets boring…
You are probably right for something like a Pihole, which can easily run on a RPi 3 as well (I think I’m running it on a 3… maybe even a 2.) My fear is something like Jellyfin (which it is not suited for anyway, I know), combined with the fact that my stack of Pis is in my meter cabinet, so a fairly confined space with very little air movement, also passive. Running Jellyfin without transcoding has my Pi 5 running at just under 50 °C.
It’s impressive what a gentle breeze will do - if you can get a fan on your cabinet it will help a lot.
I filter my air and positive pressure the cabinet so the dust doesn’t build up (as fast).
I dislike posts like this. Technology moves quickly. PIs are great for hobby electronics where you need a little computer. Want a cheap computer to run a few things 24/7 and know what you’re doing? Pi it is. You don’t need to run containers on a pi because you have the skills to install the dependencies manually. They cost pennies to run 24/7.
I think of pis as beefed-up calculators. I have made lots of money using a pi zero running code I needed to run 24/7. Code I developed myself.
Having an old laptop with outdated parts taking up lots of space, weighing a lot, and having components like fans, keyboard, and mousepad most-likely soon dying and needing replacing is an additional concern you don’t want.
Someone below saying use an old laptop if you’re living with parents and don’t pay the electricity bill is a bit lame. Do your part for the world. Someone will be paying for it.
Ultimately, use what you want but if you’re just starting with servers, use a virtual machine on your computer and log in to it. You can dick about with it as much as you want, and reset back to a working state in seconds.
I think this really depends on the model they’re eyeballing because the Pi5 is frankly ridiculous for the price and has absurd power requirements (5V5A USB?). I wouldn’t recommend one of these unless you have a specific need like a certain hat or the GPIO pins. You can get a Dell micro Optiplex for less money and have a full fledged i5 or i7 processor with similar power usage.
Plus the RPi Foundation exposed themselves as the greedy bastards they are during COVID which is yet another reason to turn your back on them.
For something like a Pi Zero, maybe go for it, but there are similar devices out there from other companies too.
I picked up a used 2018 Fujitsu office PC with an i5-7500 for $60 (from a physical recycle shop, with a 14 day warranty) and it draws 15W idle. Way better value than a Pi (once you’ve added case, cooling, PSU etc) for running home server stuff.
A Pi still kills for “Arduino plus plus” use cases where you need the size, GPIO or can optimize the heck out of power usage on a battery.
It’s even worth pointing out you can disable various parts of the pi so it uses / needs even less juice.
Yeah… no. Old laptops idle at around 50 °C.
That just means they become 100% efficient in winter!
my 20 year old pc runs at ~5°C above room temp under load
You really shouldn’t be spending your days in a room at 45 °C.
