Thanks for sharing, I get the difference between “doing it on purpose” and naturally having a higher pitched voice. How will you tell though, for normal everyday women? Like what if some woman doesn’t get picked for a promotion at work because her female boss read this article? How can we ensure that we’re not creating a worse world for women in general?
It’s not just a higher pitch of voice (though there are studies on women being discriminated against in the workplace due to higher pitches by MEN more-so than other women).
If you read the article, it’s the fact that this combination of pitch, enunciation, and docility in their speech OVERWHELMINGLY shows up in right wing women in public spaces than anywhere else. If you google “fundie baby voice” + “reddit”, you’ll get a lot of anecdotal evidence that the women in these circles do not speak like this in private (for example when they’re disciplining their children).
You should be more mad at the right wing co-opting the natural cadence of these hypothetical women you are defending as a symbol of subservience than the “discrimination” against it in the workplace by other imaginary women.
My problem is that normal everyday women may be judged as fundie or conservative or “trying to be subservient to men” based on something they cannot control, or will have to police.
Secondly, why are my women “hypothetical”? Are you questioning my motivations by saying that? Please don’t make unnecessary assumptions.
Again, I realize these conservative women are doing this to their voices on purpose for a specific cultural reason. It’s gross and I am opposed to it. There are however women who have such voices naturally. How will you ever know who does it on purpose or not? Why do we need to attack women for their physiology anyways!?
How can someone who calls themselves progressive be okay with creating another physiology-based vector that anyone can use to attack common women?
Sorry, my “hypothetical women” thing came across as snarky.
I absolutely understand your point regarding the discrimination vector, but my point is that the root of the problem is still the conservatives who use a woman’s soft/high voice as a way to convey a political and social position. There wouldn’t BE a discriminatory vector if not for this issue.
You’re looking at the downstream effects of something that hasn’t been proven, instead of looking at the root issue directly being pointed out to you.
my point is that the root of the problem is still the conservatives who use a woman’s soft/high voice as a way to convey a political and social position
I agree, but doesn’t reacting in opposition to their ill-conceived use of women’s natural voices, and perverting it for an agenda, implicitly assume some kind of superiority in softer voices w.r.t women? To me, it seems like saying “these women are putting on this front because softer voices are better on women”.
I disagree that softer voices are inherently better or more attractive in women, so it doesn’t convey any social or political stance to me that someone does this on purpose to themselves. To me, their use of this type of voice seems like a misguided attempt to box out trans women from a definition of femininity or womanhood, but all they’re really doing is policing themselves for conservative men. I don’t care if they want to be this way for their men! Being that way is not inherently attractive or desirable, and attacking it this way just makes it worse for women who have this type of voice naturally.
I don’t understand why people let conservative women define any standard or definition of femininity or womanhood. They’re not the arbiters of anything.
Ok, but have you seen how people interact with small feminine women? It’s already been happening. And we absolutely do need to challenge that, but we also need to be aware that some women are pressured into looking and sounding smaller and more feminine in order to come off as more subservient to men. Both aspects of this need to be acknowledged in order to effectively deconstruct either.
We shouldn’t be judging people based on their voice. When we treat women with high pitched voices as potentially authoritative we take power away from the attempt to make it a sign of submission.
We shouldn’t be judging people based on their voice. When we treat women with high pitched voices as potentially authoritative we take power away from the attempt to make it a sign of submission.
Yes! That’s an idea I fully support :)
but we also need to be aware that some women are pressured into looking and sounding smaller and more feminine in order to come off as more subservient to men.
I agree wholeheartedly, and I’ll add that a lot of the policies concerning women and reproductive rights and pregnancy/divorce cropping up in conservative states are very troubling. The conditioning of women to be subservient is part of it.
Have you seen the movie Mystic Pizza? It breaks my heart, but that’s the kind of life “sweet” women get saddled with when they learn that standing up for themselves is somehow not “good girl” behavior. I feel like there should be memes that subvert the whole “good girl” trope, like filing for divorce when you’re in an abusive relationship is a good girl behavior (as in good on you lol)
I like where your head is at, but I don’t really like the idea of reframing “good girl” for two reasons: 1) the phrase is as sexualized as daddy is, and 2) it reinforces approval seeking behavior as contrasted with what is happening of memes encouraging women to be all the “negative” things. A good girl is a rube. A bad bitch takes care of herself, a slut gets laid, prude knows who isn’t worth fucking, etc. It revolves around desensitizing women to the things you’re just going to inevitably be called if you have both tits and a spine
Yes! I am a small, AFAB femme looking person. You are absolutely correct- it’s about taking something naturally feminine and exaggerating it to appeal to hierarchical power. It’s been the only way to placate some people, throughout my life!
It’s unfair to everyone, the same way telling AMAB kids to ‘speak like a man or no one will respect you’. No one should require a deep voice to be respected.
We need to fix this ingrained issue of gender expression = ability.
Yeah I’m a large trans woman and I still distinctly remember how going into college looking like a severely depressed wreck and having a full denial beard I was treated like I obviously knew things and was smart, but by the time i graduated I’d been long transitioned and suddenly as the same person I was assumed less competent despite those 5 years being when I went from a dipshit who knew nothing to someone competent. And the speaking patterns I’d been punished for not having became ones I was punished for having.
But also I’m big enough I can make myself heard, it often comes with negative side effects (trans women standing up for ourselves isn’t traditionally smiled on), but I can do it. My mom was the same way and I’m grateful to have had her demonstrate it for me time and again. My little sister though got neither out mom’s size nor her extroversion. It frustrates me to no end that just because she’s small and capable of shutting her mouth some people treat her as less intelligent instead of the brilliant anxious wreck she is.
And yeah I definitely butch it up a bit at work because I’m in a male dominated field and want to be taken remotely seriously. And the fact that I’m choosing to stop myself here from listing examples is part of how big of a problem this is. Patriarchy isn’t some ideology but rather it is woven deep into our culture and the way we are taught to think and interact. It is difficult and important work to push back against it in ourselves and part of that is going to be making a point to listen to what small feminine people have to say, including the quiet and timid ones.
See, I know this is part of the trans hate. It’s a lot harder to enforce patriarchy when one sees behind the curtain & talks about it.
Thank you for being you, and standing up for yourself. I’m married to a (tall & gorgeous) trans woman, and she was surprised that no one gets out of her way anymore, lol. She says people invade her personal space and stand directly in her path constantly.
And thank you for being you. We need women and feminine people of all shapes and sizes being strong, capable, and refusing to not be heard. It was feminist theory that gave me the words to describe what I saw and that was built on a wide array of experiences.
Thanks for sharing, I get the difference between “doing it on purpose” and naturally having a higher pitched voice. How will you tell though, for normal everyday women? Like what if some woman doesn’t get picked for a promotion at work because her female boss read this article? How can we ensure that we’re not creating a worse world for women in general?
It’s not just a higher pitch of voice (though there are studies on women being discriminated against in the workplace due to higher pitches by MEN more-so than other women).
If you read the article, it’s the fact that this combination of pitch, enunciation, and docility in their speech OVERWHELMINGLY shows up in right wing women in public spaces than anywhere else. If you google “fundie baby voice” + “reddit”, you’ll get a lot of anecdotal evidence that the women in these circles do not speak like this in private (for example when they’re disciplining their children).
You should be more mad at the right wing co-opting the natural cadence of these hypothetical women you are defending as a symbol of subservience than the “discrimination” against it in the workplace by other imaginary women.
My problem is that normal everyday women may be judged as fundie or conservative or “trying to be subservient to men” based on something they cannot control, or will have to police.
Secondly, why are my women “hypothetical”? Are you questioning my motivations by saying that? Please don’t make unnecessary assumptions.
Again, I realize these conservative women are doing this to their voices on purpose for a specific cultural reason. It’s gross and I am opposed to it. There are however women who have such voices naturally. How will you ever know who does it on purpose or not? Why do we need to attack women for their physiology anyways!?
How can someone who calls themselves progressive be okay with creating another physiology-based vector that anyone can use to attack common women?
Sorry, my “hypothetical women” thing came across as snarky.
I absolutely understand your point regarding the discrimination vector, but my point is that the root of the problem is still the conservatives who use a woman’s soft/high voice as a way to convey a political and social position. There wouldn’t BE a discriminatory vector if not for this issue.
You’re looking at the downstream effects of something that hasn’t been proven, instead of looking at the root issue directly being pointed out to you.
I agree, but doesn’t reacting in opposition to their ill-conceived use of women’s natural voices, and perverting it for an agenda, implicitly assume some kind of superiority in softer voices w.r.t women? To me, it seems like saying “these women are putting on this front because softer voices are better on women”.
I disagree that softer voices are inherently better or more attractive in women, so it doesn’t convey any social or political stance to me that someone does this on purpose to themselves. To me, their use of this type of voice seems like a misguided attempt to box out trans women from a definition of femininity or womanhood, but all they’re really doing is policing themselves for conservative men. I don’t care if they want to be this way for their men! Being that way is not inherently attractive or desirable, and attacking it this way just makes it worse for women who have this type of voice naturally.
I don’t understand why people let conservative women define any standard or definition of femininity or womanhood. They’re not the arbiters of anything.
Ok, but have you seen how people interact with small feminine women? It’s already been happening. And we absolutely do need to challenge that, but we also need to be aware that some women are pressured into looking and sounding smaller and more feminine in order to come off as more subservient to men. Both aspects of this need to be acknowledged in order to effectively deconstruct either.
We shouldn’t be judging people based on their voice. When we treat women with high pitched voices as potentially authoritative we take power away from the attempt to make it a sign of submission.
Yes! That’s an idea I fully support :)
I agree wholeheartedly, and I’ll add that a lot of the policies concerning women and reproductive rights and pregnancy/divorce cropping up in conservative states are very troubling. The conditioning of women to be subservient is part of it.
Have you seen the movie Mystic Pizza? It breaks my heart, but that’s the kind of life “sweet” women get saddled with when they learn that standing up for themselves is somehow not “good girl” behavior. I feel like there should be memes that subvert the whole “good girl” trope, like filing for divorce when you’re in an abusive relationship is a good girl behavior (as in good on you lol)
I like where your head is at, but I don’t really like the idea of reframing “good girl” for two reasons: 1) the phrase is as sexualized as daddy is, and 2) it reinforces approval seeking behavior as contrasted with what is happening of memes encouraging women to be all the “negative” things. A good girl is a rube. A bad bitch takes care of herself, a slut gets laid, prude knows who isn’t worth fucking, etc. It revolves around desensitizing women to the things you’re just going to inevitably be called if you have both tits and a spine
Yes! I am a small, AFAB femme looking person. You are absolutely correct- it’s about taking something naturally feminine and exaggerating it to appeal to hierarchical power. It’s been the only way to placate some people, throughout my life!
It’s unfair to everyone, the same way telling AMAB kids to ‘speak like a man or no one will respect you’. No one should require a deep voice to be respected.
We need to fix this ingrained issue of gender expression = ability.
Yeah I’m a large trans woman and I still distinctly remember how going into college looking like a severely depressed wreck and having a full denial beard I was treated like I obviously knew things and was smart, but by the time i graduated I’d been long transitioned and suddenly as the same person I was assumed less competent despite those 5 years being when I went from a dipshit who knew nothing to someone competent. And the speaking patterns I’d been punished for not having became ones I was punished for having.
But also I’m big enough I can make myself heard, it often comes with negative side effects (trans women standing up for ourselves isn’t traditionally smiled on), but I can do it. My mom was the same way and I’m grateful to have had her demonstrate it for me time and again. My little sister though got neither out mom’s size nor her extroversion. It frustrates me to no end that just because she’s small and capable of shutting her mouth some people treat her as less intelligent instead of the brilliant anxious wreck she is.
And yeah I definitely butch it up a bit at work because I’m in a male dominated field and want to be taken remotely seriously. And the fact that I’m choosing to stop myself here from listing examples is part of how big of a problem this is. Patriarchy isn’t some ideology but rather it is woven deep into our culture and the way we are taught to think and interact. It is difficult and important work to push back against it in ourselves and part of that is going to be making a point to listen to what small feminine people have to say, including the quiet and timid ones.
See, I know this is part of the trans hate. It’s a lot harder to enforce patriarchy when one sees behind the curtain & talks about it.
Thank you for being you, and standing up for yourself. I’m married to a (tall & gorgeous) trans woman, and she was surprised that no one gets out of her way anymore, lol. She says people invade her personal space and stand directly in her path constantly.
This shit really is so ingrained in our society.
And thank you for being you. We need women and feminine people of all shapes and sizes being strong, capable, and refusing to not be heard. It was feminist theory that gave me the words to describe what I saw and that was built on a wide array of experiences.