- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
You must log in or register to comment.
No, it’s not. It’s a practical problem, not an economic one, but leave it to the tankies here to take it as an opportunity to show how many slogans they have learned.
This is a real problem but you can only have so many words in a tweet. Note that the price isn’t zero but instead negative. It means there is literally too much power in the grid and it would need to be used. If a grid has too much power then it is bad. It can damage it. There are things we can build that essentially amount to batteries (or natural variants like a dam) that get charged during times of higher supply than demand and discharged during times of higher demand than supply.
Remember what Conservatives said about “not enough power”? I think that might be a lie
I hate to be the akshully guy but the big problem isn’t economics but usage. We can’t store electricity at any kind of meaningful scale so generation needs to be balanced to meet demand. Unused excess power needs to go somewhere, hence the negative prices (the market way of saying, “please somebody take this electricity it’s doing more harm than good on the grid”).
Shutting down solar is super easy. You just need a switch. Wind is a bit more complicated, but it is basically stopping the rotor. The reason for negative prices are subsidies. So they can sell to the government or get some extra money as to be able to operate them properly.
Also we do not need to store insane amounts of electricity. As soon as your grid is large enough weather balances itself out fairly well. For the EU the worst production of solar and wind combined was still 897GWh in a day last year. The average was 1770GWh per day. So worst case it was half the average prodcution. If you go weekly it is 9335GWh and 12423GWh respectivly so even less. So you really only need a good enough grid and something like a days worth of storage. That actually ends up being pretty reasonable, as soon as you consider stored hydro and other flexible electricity generation.
I like the system where the excess power is used to pump water into a reservoir up a mountain and when power is needed it runs it down a turbine into a lower reservoir.
Most places where this can be done, it is already being done. The low hanging fruit for pumped hydro was all picked decades ago, and at great cost to the ecosystems it destroyed in the process - turns out that drowning thousands of acres in massive man-made lakes had a bit of an impact on the plants and animals that lived there.
Not saying that the benefits weren’t worth the cost, that’s a whole different debate. But there’s little to no opportunity to scale this energy storage tech beyond it’s current footprint.
Just make a tall and really skinny lake.
What if we filled space elevator shaft with water :o
/s just in case
Yea there are plenty of ways to store energy using things like gravity as a battery. The crap saying we can’t handle the extra energy is BS. We won’t, cuz money before planet, but we 100% can.
Just send all that extra power for free over to the tech companies training AI to fix the problem of how much energy it consumes.
Nikola Tesla was a radical anarchist then, I guess? :-P
I mean, in a lot of ways he didn’t care about the economics of his inventions. He wanted to transfer electricity wirelessly across huge areas and there really wasn’t a way to monetise that if everyone could just tap into that.
In a communist society you could build something like that, in capitalism you’re not going to find an investor to do this.
I wish Tesla had just invented induction stoves instead of going for his holy grail. I don’t think induction is a good way to move power over large distances, but it’s a great way to cook dinner.
I guess since we still don’t have wireless transmission there were probably physical limitations to what he was trying to do. You would think someone would’ve tried it in the century since.
I don’t think there was a huge capitalist conspiracy to stop this from happening unless someone can point me to something that says otherwise.
We do have wireless charging for phones, and induction stoves that transfer heat. And yes there was a bit of a conspiracy regarding Tesla, it is quite famous, but I will leave you to direct your own studies there however you see fit. One part is that Edison was not so much the “inventor” as his reputation may naively lead people to believe as an “exploiter” as in he ran an invention sweatshop company. But anyway you are right to be suspicious of Tesla ofc - he wasn’t very practical and maybe it was after being burned by his experiences with Edison but he did not set out to prove his ideas in the most practical manner and instead went off the deep end trying to solve the more scientific and engineering aspects further rather than take forward what he had already shown irt short distance transfers. So the conspiracy wasn’t “huge”, just a consequence of him having been blacklisted by Edison combined with his own business ineptitude to not find financial backers. I am only saying though that the limitations were not entirely physical (the long distance ones are, but not the short distance ones), so much as practicality especially in the business sense of taking a product from conception all the way to market.
Yeah, obviously induction charging has been around (and is easy enough to monetise), but he was famously trying to build a way to transfer electricity over long distances, and I’m assuming this isn’t possible without incurring huge losses.
Agree on all you said about Edison, he basically was that eras Elon Musk, taking credit for the work of others.
he was famously trying to build a way to transfer electricity over long distances, and I’m assuming this isn’t possible without incurring huge losses.
Yes, I believe you are correct about that, although I too do not know what precisely those limitations are:-).
For one thing, Tesla was not entirely truthful to his investors:
Astor thought he was primarily investing in the new wireless lighting system. Instead, Tesla used the money to fund his Colorado Springs experiments.
And for another, he chased down the wrong path for awhile:
The observations he made of the electronic noise of lightning strikes led him to (incorrectly) conclude that he could use the entire globe of the Earth to conduct electrical energy.
So, it is not quite a full “conspiracy” to claim that he somehow deserved additional funding despite all of his past shortcomings. It sounds to me more like hindsight being 20/20, we now realize how he was correct, how he was wrong, and overall people try to use him as an example of capitalism’s failings. Like the first rule of inventions are that when one fails you should try try again, except that’s obviously not true - yeah try a few times but ultimately spend your time on what looks most likely to work, not repeating to extend forward a string of endless failures. i.e., people try to use his example in spite of the facts, not because of them. Maybe, it looks like.
And it’s likely true - if as much effort had been put into that technology as was put into Edison’s, perhaps we really would have solved that long-distance problem by now - maybe. Therein lies the germ of truth imho: you cannot overcome it if you refuse to even so much as try? So in that case, it is truly the constraints of capitalism that killed the spirit of innovation there, as in we could (maybe) have had something, if only profits were not people’s sole motivation.
Similarly and in a much more damaging manner we see drug companies researching palliatives and “care options” rather than actual cures. The goal of any corporation - even ones working in a medical field - is solely to make profits. Hence Viagra and Cialis, and funding goes towards further development of pain relief and such, even as funding was taken away from research towards cures for common diseases (even ones the researchers themselves believed they were “close” to solving!).
All of this works together as arguments against capitalism being the best economic system - it works well in theory but only up to a point, similar to socialism, and irl the systems that have worked the absolute best was a blending of the two, with each providing a different mixture of benefits and detractions. e.g. if Tesla had been under a socialist system or in more of a blended one, could his excesses have been reigned in and what innovations would we have today in that case? We will never know ofc, but at least I am attempting to frame the argument that I commonly hear from people who don’t quite state their reasoning, so this is my attempt to reconstruct it. :-)
I guess I should’ve started with the wiki article, which spells out he was working off the erroneous assumption that the atmosphere was somehow more conductive than it really is.
Anyway, thanks for the interesting discussion.
Thus, Ben Franklin wins electricity, and they made Tesla into a joke, who goes on to be a recluse, yeah?
My shareholders!
I saw some context for this, and the short of it is that headline writers want you to hate click on articles.
What the article is actually about is that there’s tons of solar panels now but not enough infrastructure to effectively limit/store/use the power at peak production, and the extra energy in the grid can cause damage. Damage to the extent of people being without power for months.
California had a tax incentive program for solar panels, but not batteries, and because batteries are expensive, they’re in a situation now where so many people put panels on their houses but no batteries to store excess power that they can’t store the power when it surpasses demand, so the state is literally paying companies to run their industrial stoves and stuff just to burn off the excess power to keep the grid from being destroyed.
That’s not what I got from the article. (Link for anyone who wants to check it out.)
My interpretation was that decreasing solar/wind electricity prices slows the adoption of renewables, as it becomes increasingly unlikely that you will fully recoup your initial investment over the lifetime of the panel/turbine.
In my mind, this will likely lead to either (a) renewable energy being (nearly) free to use and exclusively state-funded, or (b) state-regulated price fixing of renewable energy.
Lol
I just love when large organizations (governments included) skimp on something for monetary reasons, and get fucked down the line.
Too bad citizens pay the damages.
Wish there was just a faster way to get citizen input.
“Hey folks, this is going to be a cost overrun for this very very good reason, please vote yay or nay in the weekly election”.
Don’t see how it could work now though, given that half the citizens are deeply committed to destroying everything to prove gov doesn’t work.
Batteries are more than likely another type of pollution. I’m sure they can and will be recycled but just like the problem with our current capacity to recycle things it probably becomes untenable (guessing).
The state just needs to find ways to convert that energy into something else. I suggest desalinating sea water and pumping it up stream.
You can’t just say battery. There’s tons of energy storage that isn’t chemical based. Thermal sand batteries, pumping hydro up a hill, flywheel energy storage, etc.
Energy storage doesn’t inherently mean pollution
I can only assume op meant a lithium ion battery. Based on context.
Yeah, the cobalt and lithium is quite nasty to mine
You gotta say what kind of battery when you make a comment like that. A bottle of pressurized gas is a battery. Not very polluting though.
Sure you can buy a compressor and some air tanks. I imagine the turbine you need to purchase might be midly expensive. The real issue I think would be the size of the pressure vessel you would need to make it worth it.
Just send the electricity to a neighbouring state. Sure, it’ll be really inefficient to pass it through that massive length of cable, but that’s fine, we don’t care about that. If the interstate power infrastructure doesn’t have enough capacity then first priority should be to upgrade it.
America is severly lacking in UHVDC.
The peak of power demand is behind the peak of production. So sending power east makes so much sense.
That’s one of the options they mention as a solution.
Basically store it, use it, ship it, subsidize it or pay someone to waste it are the options.
Right now they pay someone to waste it, which is the option that makes adoption the most difficult, so it’s a problem.
Also, let’s be real here. The Lion battery farms, defeat any sort of environmental benefit. It is a total shot in the foot, which is why governments, and solar companies don’t advertise the concept.
For a moment I was thinking that lion battery is some brand, until it clicked in that you are talking about lithium ion batteries
Sorry, I should have put a dash in :D Li-ion. Also another i.
Rawr!
‘Unlimited’ and ‘free’ are blasphemous to capitalists. To start off a gaslight post with them is just ensuring your pilot light remains unlit
run pumps, move water
Scarcity is artifically created in the modern age
My local library can only lend out x copies of each ebook at a time, so sometimes I’m in a queue for the last lenders loan time to run out
cough Anna’s cough archive cough
Surely just pirate it so you can read it on your timetable, and take the book from the library when it’s your turn to give that author the lending stats?
The first factories were powered by waterwheels. Those were subjected to seasonal variations and limited geographic possibilities, what gave negotiating power to labor. Therefore the industry switched to fossil fuels, so they could run when and where they wanted, preferably near a city with excess labor force. It made it more expensive to run, but it was easier to exploit labor so more profit.
In the case of Spain, at least, they own the grid, so all solar energy that you sell to distributors because you have no use for it yourself, they’ll only pay you peanuts for it and they will still make a devious profit.
The two solar panels companies that I got in contact with weren’t interested in selling me a quantity small enough that was coherent with my needs, and they’d charge me a premium if I wasn’t willing to make a contract with them to sell them specifically the excess energy.
But if you have batteries at home you almost don’t need the grid. Add an EV and you hit two birds with one stone.
i wonder if the battery in an ev can be used as a house battery?
Many can
It’s certainly possible, but is it worth it?
EV batteries tend to use some of the best technology available in order to get power density and energy density where they need to be. A house battery can be much bigger and heavier if that makes it cheaper.
Somebody at work was just telling me about some efforts to reuse e.g. Tesla battery packs for home or grid storage rather than recycling them. Even if the pack can only hold 80% of its original charge, that’s fine if you can just buy a few of those cheaply.
Yes, but it tends to be the largest ones, like the F150 or the Hummer. In other words, the ones that FuckCars hates the most, and for mostly good reasons.
You also need to setup the charger right to make it work, but that tends to be secondary.
Rent seekers always keep their hands on the tap.
We own the factories building the panels.
Solar cells don’t really grow on trees.
Solar cells don’t really grow on trees.
Are you talking about
A scalable self replicating and self sustaining carbon capture technology that uses a mix of highly specialized biological processes to turn CO2 into engineering grade composite material, fuel and fertilizer.
?
You can’t earn the big money with it, so the capitalism isn’t interested. Planting a tree is almost for free. Maybe if we could file a patent on trees or something like that. Let’s ask Nestlé how they did it with water
A more apt comparison would be Monsanto with corn.
The majority of panels produced in the world right now is China. Like dwarfs the other countries.
Big oil currently does not own the factories.
Photosynthesis - provided by the OG solar cells.
Yeah it won’t power my computer, just found the irony comical.
You could theoretically build a coal pit in your back yard to turn the wood into coal, then power a steam engine hooked to generators to make electricity to run your computer. If you wanna be super “efficient” you can route the gasses from the coal process through the steam engine too to get power from that as well
Probably cleaner and less work to do almost any other kind of power though
All power on earth is solar if you did far enough.
Geothermal energy isn’t solar.
Almost… Nuclear comes from super-novae, therefore not strictly “solar” (in the sense coming from the sun) but loosely yeah everything comes from stars and star formation
Well yeah, but that’s like a one-time purchase (for years) compared to coals/etc. where they can charge for the “amount” used
We need natural batteries like solar power lifting water from a lake into a reservoir so that when we need that energy and the sun isn’t making it, released water does
A cubic meter of water above your roof has the storing capacity of a AAA cell. That’s why you need huge, massive damms to store any significant amount of power. But unfortunately it’s not flexible enough (you need mountains nearby) or dense enough.
There are already companies making thermal storage systems to store excess energy. They heat sand up to about 500 degrees when there’s excess power and then convert it back to electricity or just use the heat directly for heating water or living spaces.
There’s also companies (googles do nothing but link to YouTube videos) working on scaling this down to about the size of a water heater.
What about storing energy as potential energy using some high density objects. This may work… Right?? gravitricity Check out their work.
It’s slithly better the more dense the material, but that’s basically the same thing. You could say that depending on the location, using water is much more practical.
A much more interesting one I saw was the molten salt ones, where basically you store the energy as heat in a sealed place, and then when you need it, you use that heat to run turbines.
Yes, suspended weights, also spinning flywheels, hot salt, hot sand
There’s options besides pumped hydro, hydrogen and batteries
Yes this exists and it’s called pumped storage hydroelectricity
I did some work at a place called The hollow mountain that does this. But seeing as it looked like an underground James Bond bad guy base and I was a rope access mook in a boiler suit, I felt like I could die at any moment by tuxedo clad hero.
It wasn’t solar they used to power pump the water back up though. They just, hmm I want to say, bought cheap electricity when no one was using it.This is the imperial base from Andor, right? Cool
Holeey sheet it is! I didn’t know that! Thanks.
With an energy conversion efficiency of usually 75 to 80 % they are really efficient and don’t have as much energy loss as other types of energy storage. It’s a simple, but powerful concept and I find it beautiful. However, there is some concern regarding their impact on the local ecosystem. Not only do they need huge water reservoirs, which are artificially created and therefore might impact nearby rivers and even fish migration, but the way they are sealed with concrete or asphalt also disallows the development of riparian vegetation. From an ecological perspective they are basically dead zones.
Still, considering several alternatives, I think it’s one of the better options. Although it’s not cheap to build those, which is a problem in our current capitalitic society
Solar panels are pretty far from free, and not unlimited either.
Just use the extra energy to shoot random laser beams into space… Make sure the aliens know we’re armed
The surplus should be returned to the sun. It’s called investing in your future.
Adding a tiny bit of energy to the sun so it will have burned-up in 4bln minus 5 years instead of in 4 bln years? Genius.
The joke is that it wouldn’t work. God damn it lmfao
Not with that attitude.
YOU DON’T KNOW THAT WE’VE NEVER TRIED
THAT SPEEDS UP THE RATE OF FUEL CONSUMPTION negligibly
I mean it is a problem, not because of capitalism but because of reality, while there can be a lot of overlap between sunny day and lots of solar energy for all the ACs running our energy usave is also significant in the afternoon when solar is winding down and the evening where its non existent and we need to balance that and transfer all the energy, copper prices are going through the roof, there are shortages in electric grid components, its nice that solar is cheap but you need to distribute that energy and at some point we will have to bite the bullet and deploy a lot of nuclear energy, last time I checked the wind/solar installations didnt even offset the energy demand increase happening that year.
