Because someone, eventually, is going to make this post anyway, we might as well get it over with. I know someone posted something a week ago, but I feel something a little more neutral would be useful.
There’s a lot of talk on lemmy.world right now about lemmy.ml at an instance level (edit: see here: https://sh.itjust.works/post/20400058). A lot of it is very similar to the discussions we’ve had here before- accusations of ideologically-based censorship, promotion of authoritarian left propaganda, ‘tankie-ism’, etc. The subject of the admin’s, and Lemmy dev’s, political beliefs is back up as a discussion point. The word defederation is getting thrown around, and some of our beloved sh.it.heads are part of the conversation.
What do people think about lemmy.ml? Is there evidence that the instance is managed in such a way that it creates problems for Lemmy users, and/or users of sh.itjust.works specifically? Are they problems that extend to the entire instance or primary user base, or are the examples referenced generally limited to specific communities/moderators/users? Are people here, in short, interested in putting federation to lemmy.ml to a vote?
To our admin team and moderators: What are your experiences with lemmy.ml? Have you run into any specific problems with their userbase, or challenges related to our being federated with them?
Full disclosure: I have very little personal stake in this. I don’t really engage with posts about international events, I don’t share my political beliefs (such as they are) online beyond “Don’t be a shitbag, help your fellow human out when you can”, and have not run into any of the concerns brought up personally. But I’m also not the kind of user who would butt against this stuff often in the first place.
What I will say is that I have not personally witnessed activites like brigading or promotion of really nasty shit from lemmy.ml. I cannot say this about other instances we defederated from before. But again, this may just be a product of how I use Lemmy, and does not account for the experiences of others.
This is just an opportunity for those who do have strong opinions on this topic to say their piece and, more importantly, share their evidence.
If nothing else, given similar conversations a year ago, this will be an interesting account of what sh.itjust.works looks like today (happy belated cake day everybody!)
IMHO, some of their communities are sketchy, but as long as it’s contained in their communities, that’s easily manageable with just the user-level instance block feature.
Not for a new user who is not aware…
It would be preferable if lemmy.ml were an opt-in feature rather than one that someone has to learn how to opt out of, on top of trying to figure everything else about the Fediverse at the same time.
I am now strongly hesitant to recommend Lemmy to people irl bc of all the heavy mandatory curation that must be done before someone can have a pleasant experience. After accidentally responding to a comment in chapotraphouse, and another in lemmygrad.ml, I almost left the Fediverse entirely rather than put up with the barrage of many tens of responses that continued for weeks despite me not responding to them anymore, and I don’t want people to associate that with me. i.e. it is a bad look for us all when the “we” includes “them”, and it hurts our growth overall. I strongly believe they should have the freedom to be however they want… (even though they do not reciprocate that thought) but that doesn’t mean that I want to help bring new people into their audience for their amusement.
Right, while it technically has a user-level solution, you’re right that a brand new user would simply not know about any of this.
I stumble upon a few now and then when they try and report stuff from there.
So… something like autoblocking the instance on user creation… which might make more sense than outright defederation. A bot could probably be made to do that and send them a DM with instructions on how to change it off they so wish.Thanks for your input
I love that thought!
There is also the site.content_warning rolling out with v0.19.4 to consider - many of the details were not immediately clear to me from that page (is it just images and visiting the community, but what about text-based posts from a community? it says the warning will be delivered the first time a user triggers it, but will a cookie allow that to persist for a user across sessions or need to be re-done each time?), but it does seem a promising avenue to explore.
I liken it to porn - if you enjoy it, then have at it, but at least warn someone prior to it showing up unannounced, or regardless of the fact that it came from elsewhere, people will judge us for having brought it to them. People will ofc complain about being labelled - and fascists will complain the loudest of all (despite their own heavy-handed practices, yet realizing that we actually care about such, it is a tactic that sadly works far more often than it does not) - but honestly it’s just a thing that they could/should do for themselves, akin to how people of consideration will add warning/apology labels for e.g. a long reply to a comment, to let the recipient know that perhaps the read-through may be easier to postpone until a more opportune time for it. And there is nothing preventing them (those people whose content would become labelled) from being included in the process of designing what the precise text of that label would entail? Though if they refuse to participate in good faith then as you suggested, there are ways around dealing with the situation that are just as effective. And maybe the latter solution using tried-and-true methods needs to be done regardless, while the labelling option is still in the experimental stages (especially if the code developers drag their feet making it work in a manner contrary to their philosophy - i.e. they simply remove content that they don’t like, not label it but leave it up, as we are talking about here).
TLDR: opt-in offers maximum friendliness + welcomingness to people and will increase our overall content submissions, whereas out-out turns people away and therefore lowers that.
I did not even know that you were an admin - and would have written a much shorter reply had you not mentioned it - but since you have some ability to influence things for the good of us all, then I thank you for your consideration to actually implement some solution or another to aid with these matters that many of us care so much about: growing & maintaining a healthy Fediverse, even between people with such disparate ideals!:-)
I’m more bothered by anti-tankie posts then tankie posts.
When I found about the existence of Lemmy, I wanted to create an account, and found that Lemmy.ml is the official Lemmy instance ran by the Lemmy developers (who I knew nothing about). Seemed like the obvious, default, non-controversial choice.
Of course I later learned about… All this. I’m not interested in any political content so it took me a while.
So I guess I’d be a casualty, due to picking the biggest instance suggested to me by join-lemmy.org. How is someone new to Lemmy supposed to have the context here?
It’s not ideal. I will say that the focus on ml has been removed from the join-lemmy website, even when I joined it was encouraged to join something other than ml just under a year ago and that change happened in the middle of the Reddit exodus. You could consider making an account on another instance now that you do have more information, a lot of people have already done that but it’s a pain without account migration implemented yet.
Hexbear is a instance run by tankies that spread their shit ideology and quash any dissent where they have the power to do so. Lemmy.ml is the exact same, except it’s much bigger and run by the Lemmy devs. I don’t think they should get a pass, and I think that Lemmy will become tankie Voat if this is allowed to continue indefinitely.
I came here because Reddit was being run by corporate scum that only cared about profits, and they crossed too many lines. I thought I could get a new start away from all the mod/admin abuse. I’m starting to realize that basically every instance’s and community’s admins abuse their powers to push their agenda, whether it’s political or trying to maximize membership, to the detriment of their larger userbase.
I don’t think this is a winning fight, even if LML is effectively quarantined, but I’d like to buy time by mass-defederating them.
Well said. The Fediverse has a massive propaganda problem and we should take it head-on if we want to see the Fediverse survive.
The two outcomes I see are:
- We slowly bleed off users until all that remain are tankies, fascists, etc.
- We effectively have two Fediverses, where one is LML, LG, Hexbear, and everyone that wants to allow users and sympathizers from those instances, and the other is everyone else.
Yes, so let’s do #2. I’d enjoy the Fediverse without as much propaganda and negativity, and I’d be thrilled to be able to recommend it to friends.
Yeah, as is I just can’t bring myself to tell people I use lemmy, let alone recommend it. That’s the biggest thing holding lemmy back right now if you ask me
Midwest.social might be another one, though it gets more and more complex b/c they’ve mixed in “leftism” with “being in the midwestern USA”, so a lot of their users and communities there don’t realize what that means, i.e. they think leftism = liberalism as in Bernie Sanders, not = Marxist-Leninist communism except scratch that, outright fascism just using that as a thin veneer to cover their true authoritarianism. And now they hold those users and communities hostage to anyone that would threaten to defederate from them - though they are currently still small(-ish).
Also, you can tell fairly easily when individual users shift over from such an instance to one that is not defederated - the rules they play by on their own instances is one thing, but what they can get away with on other instances is also the very same thing (“my way = the only correct way, and if I have power then I will enforce that, while if you have power than I absolutely dare you to use it”). Hence while defederation solves some issues, it also merely shifts the issues around to have to deal with some other way at some future date… or else as you say we simply allow it to choke the life out of the whole endeavor entirely.
Which is already happening. We who choose to come here tend to forget: there are a whole huge class of people that refuse to use the likes of Facebook/Meta, Twitter/X, Threads, and even Reddit, b/c they cannot stand “social media”, as it contains such toxicity. Their solution to avoiding such rudeness into their lives is to simply not partake at all. They read books, play games, solve puzzles, touch grass, etc., and since coming to such a place is not fun, they simply… don’t. When I was on Kbin.social, I started recommending the Fediverse to such people irl, b/c it seemed poised to be different than Reddit et al., though now that I have come over to the Lemmy side and experienced firsthand the likes of Chapotraphouse on hexbear.net and anything at all on lemmygrad.ml and now more and more things on lemmy.ml (which I just blocked yesterday), I can no longer in good conscience recommend the Fediverse to people. Like administering your own Linux machine, good experiences can be had, if you put in sufficient effort to curate your experience, but that is not what the vast majority of average people are looking to do.
So we will grow, or we will die. Thus I would be in favor of defederation if that were the only option, though now I think that there are other alternatives to provide a more “opt-in” - rather than mandate an “opt-out” - experience, e.g. as InEnduringGrowStrong suggested elsewhere in this thread, have new user sign-ups automatically block “those” places on the list, and have a bot send them a message about how to remove those blocks if they wish. The site.content_warning rolling out with v0.19.4 is another option to consider heavily - like porn, perhaps we should not be in the business of banning everything, when merely labelling such experiences would be sufficient as to warn users that it is there? (or both:-)
Lemmy.ml is very obviously being used as a training ground for state sponsored propagandists before they are promoted to Facebook or reddit.
Makes me wonder if the Lemmy devs are getting a kickback
First of all, lemmy.world admins do have history of overreacting (e.g. with piracy & shroom) . So I don’t think we should base our decision on theirs.
I have heard of lemmy.ml users being an issue at some point in the past, but it seem to have settled.
I personally don’t have any issue with lemmy.ml; maybe in the past, but I cannot seem to recall any. What I do know is there are active communities there (Linux comes in mind) and we’d lose all that if we defederate.
I think you would see them a lot more if you frequented threads focused on China, or even adjacently related to China in many cases. They are very heavy on censorship and doing so secretly.
It hasn’t really settled tbh. Any political thread, especially re: Ukraine is full of them
At minimum the .ml admins have shown a desire and willingness to keep their finger on the scale of the broader fediverse, which makes them a clear existential threat and possibly even a cyber security risk. In addition, they protect hexbear and lemmygrad, which openly state that their intention is to wage information warfare on the fediverse. We also see some evidence that they are running their own modified version of the code which seems to give them some special tools to do things like instant mass bans and selective federation of content. This alone is extremely concerning. The idea that we can individually block their instance does nothing to mitigate the ideological or security concerns I have.
My personal experience is that they protect propagandists and do not enforce their own rules evenly at all. My bans have been for me extremely petty things, and even for thing I have said on other instances. Meanwhile I have been called names, told that my family deserves to be tortured and that my country deserves to be nuked by .ml users (or hexbear proxies). I also find their defense of Russian and Chinese autocracy personally offensive, as I have family who have been directly impacted by both. It would be one thing if this was happening in a forum where these issues could be debated, or defenses mounted against misinformation and historical revisionism, but that is simply not the case. Even the most modest pushback against these ideas results in quick bans. This is not something we should associate with.
Just chiming in to say a lot of communities I participate in are hosted on ml, I’d be pretty bummed losing access to those. For that reason I’m against wholesale defederarion. I do think the communities need to explicitly diversify away from the instance though, ml admins seem demonstrably untrustworthy.
I do think the communities need to explicitly diversify away from the instance
Yeah, I don’t think defederation is warranted yet, but establishing non-ml alternatives for communities which happened to be hosted on ml should be a priority. Blaze posted a thread specifically on this topic: https://sh.itjust.works/post/20431762
Checking the mod logs often finds an on topic ‘right wing’ post getting deleted by their mods. As such I block everything news or politics related from there. I block non politics and news when I can find a community on a different instance to serve.
Lemmy.ml is like the PR version of lemmygrad.
I was super into the idea of lemmy.ml and actually had some extensive conversations with them and with lemmygrad when I first joined Lemmy. I didn’t agree with them on practically anything, but whatever, it is fine. Then, lemmy.ml mods started deleting my comments when they decided that I was expressing the incorrect viewpoint and that viewpoint needed to be deleted to clear the way for the correct viewpoint. That’s kind of a red line for me in terms of whether or not I feel like fuckin with a particular instance, and I pretty much turned my back on it.
This was my exact experience. I was pretty excited for a community well to the left of reddit, only to discover that they had no knowledge or interest in leftist theory beyond Lenin and Mao. Then I got run out of town for basically challenging this orthodoxy.
Whatever user: I can’t wait for the revolution, let me challenge the status quo with my iconoclasty, no politics is gonna be enough until we can battle in the FUCKING streets
Me: Dude I don’t think opinion X is correct
Whatever user: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA shaking and crying ban ban ban
Me: I WANT THE EXTINCTION OF EVERYTHING AND HATE YOU ALL, SHUT THE FUCK UP AND FIX. EVERYTHING!
OR I WILL KILL YOU ALL.
(later)
“Ma why they bein so hostile to me tho”
Their leftist views are just a facade for spreading CCP propaganda. They’re not actually communists.
I wonder if I’m banned from some places and don’t even know lol. I had some casual conversations in these areas too but wasn’t supportive of the alt right bs
Given some of the comments about stuff mysteriously not showing up in the modlog, who knows - but as far as the modlog goes you’ve had one comment deleted, no bans.
Same as me, actually - replied in earnest to a troll a while back. Didn’t know that until today, lol.
They take a very Chinese-style approach to managing the internet. Authoritarian.
Some instead do a Russian-style approach. It’s the same thing, but with posts from users critical of Russia.
This was my only meaningful personal interaction with lemmy.ml that stands out. It was not a good experience. It became very clear, very fast that I would simply have no meaningful discussion with these people. So I left some downvotes on the awful comments promoting violence and stopped engaging.
I haven’t blocked the instance or any users. But i am considering it.
I blocked the instance and my enjoyment of Lemmy has improved.
To be fair to lemmy.ml, that post came from a lemmygrad.ml user. Lemmygrad is worth amputating and blocking wholesale on your account, but lemmy.ml tankies tend to keep their ideology inside their bubble for the most part.
Yup, but they really don’t like someone challenging them on their turf.
I definitely think the problems lie with a certain set of individuals within the base, as opposed to the instance as a whole, but it’s a pretty sizable amount. It mostly comes off as a moderate annoyance to me, and not enough to warrant blocking the whole instance, much less defederation.
I will say, however, that the problems seem to be becoming more prevalent. It’s a really annoying situation, as .ml has some of the more popular communities, including the largest meme community, and it would suck to lose those. But at the same time, I’m starting to get really tired of the auth-left bootlicking and one-sided moderation.
It’s no hexbear, not by a long-shot, but it’s definitely becoming an issue.
I’m against defederartion, but I also actively avoid their communities.
I don’t think the problem is with a majority of users, just a handful, but many in that handful are mods. As an anecdote, I got temp banned from a community there because somehow our discussion shifted to Russia, despite the topic having nothing to do with it, and the mod banned me for “anti-Russia” something or other (nothing I said seemed to violate community or instance rules), but I think the real reason was me challenging that user’s authority.
I’ve also noticed a lot of downvotes for well-cited but “against the left” comments, and the responses I get are often low-effort.
I’ve also had some decent discussion there as well. I’ve challenged people’s views and had good reubuttals, so it’s really not all bad. I’m guessing it’s a fraction of very active users that cause a lot of the issues.
So I’m against defederation, but I also recommend avoiding their communities. It seems to be a strong echo chamber, but those who aren’t interested in that do seem to branch out. So don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I don’t understand the point of posts like this. How about you make up your own opinion and tell us why we should agree with it? I don’t care what a bunch of random strangers think based on their random feelings. " How do we feel about…" posts are pure trash.
This is just the community in which we have discussions and votes about how to manage this instance.
Hey Pfeffy - welcome to the Agora.
Mostly because I’m curious about what strangers think - particularly on fediverse topics. If you haven’t been on this community before, I invite you to take a look at some of the older posts.
A lot of this current lemmy.ml chatter rings super closely to shit we’ve debated here before, and given that this instance just hit its one year anniversary I think it’s interesting to see history repeat itself.
If you’re not into it though, totally cool - no hate here!
I’ve literally never noticed an issue tbqh
