• V0ldek@awful.systems
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      4 months ago

      I have never edited the LessWrong article, not sure what you’re talking about.

      receipts posted

      I meant I have never disruptively edited the article. (…) I’m not a power user of Wikipedia and don’t understand all your specialist terminology

      Dude physically unable to take an L.

      • blakestacey@awful.systemsM
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        4 months ago

        “Specialist terminology” like… the word edit?

        Not sure writing an encyclopedia is a good hobby for you, bro.

        • blakestacey@awful.systemsM
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          4 months ago

          OK, I just spent 10 minutes of my life that I’ll never get back clicking around Wikipedia edit histories, and it seems that LessWrongers are really unhappy about the LessWrong article saying anything about neoreactionaries. And they’re willing to say why at typical length.

          • froztbyte@awful.systems
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            4 months ago

            aww, poor babies. if only they didn’t literally have the leading nrx thinkers as figures of note in their own community makeup! alas, difficulty: impossible

        • froztbyte@awful.systems
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          4 months ago

          Apologies, I meant I have never disruptively edited the article

          “what do you mean keep the music down? it’s not that loud”

          I was simply trying to improve its quality

          “I merely wish you to be on my level? what’s that, what level is it? it’s mine of course, what a ridiculous question”

          I’m not a power user of Wikipedia and don’t understand all your specialist terminology so forgive me if I make the odd mistake or faux pas

          don’t even have a sneer for this. this “oh, oops, totes didn’t mean to offend!” shit that these fuckers pull when they get caught out is so goddamn tired. facepunch material.

          (it’s not even particularly “good” darvo)

          Please don’t doxx me.

          “goooootta make the other people responsible for my own actions! that’s the ticket!”

    • Soyweiser@awful.systems
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      4 months ago

      Lol how has that user not been banned yet. Clearly somebody with a very specific axe to grind.

      And of course the Rationalists start to the things they accuse others of doing. How quickly the pretense of civility disappears.

  • ᴇᴍᴘᴇʀᴏʀ 帝@feddit.uk
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    4 months ago

    Well that’s a lot of words. It’s like someone turned a dispute over editing a page into an biography of the editor. It’s that kind if mountain out of a molehill business that has led to me no longer editing Wikipedia.

    And the bit if the article that struck home:

    He had started out on the internet 20 years before as a passionate partisan for his new tribe and its potential to transform the world. In the intervening decades, though, his optimism had waned.

    It’s not an uncommon trajectory, it’s one I’ve been on myself, becoming disillusioned by social media. And yet, the Fediverse has given me new hope and enthusiasm.

    • David Gerard@awful.systemsM
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      4 months ago

      Trace started his research on the site for banned Wikipedia cranks. I don’t know if he can presently edit Wikipedia, but he writes like someone who can’t.

      • ᴇᴍᴘᴇʀᴏʀ 帝@feddit.uk
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        4 months ago

        It definitely reads like a frustrated editor dramatising petty disputes for a wider audience, who I very much doubt is interested in Wikipedia minutiae. It doesn’t explain why it has to be quite that long - I managed to finish reading it but it took a few goes to slog my way to the finish.

  • Sailor Sega Saturn@awful.systems
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    4 months ago

    What happens when your spurned ex is a devoted archivist, a Wikipedia administrator, and perhaps the most online man the world has ever known?

    I already thought he was cool you don’t have to sell me on it.

      • corbin@awful.systems
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        4 months ago

        Show me a long-time English Wikipedia editor who hasn’t broken the rules. Since WP is editable text and most of us have permission to alter most pages, rule violations aren’t set in stone and don’t have to be punished harshly; often, it’s good enough to be told that what you did was wrong and that your edits will be reverted.

        NSFW: When you bring this sort of argument to the table, you’re making it obvious that you’ve never been a Wikipedian. That’s not a bad thing, but it does mean that you’re going to get talked down to; even if your question was in good faith, you could have answered it yourself by lurking amongst the culture being critiqued.

      • self@awful.systemsM
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        4 months ago

        hey buddy, uh, you gonna post any sneers in this here SneerClub thread you’ve started?

    • blakestacey@awful.systemsM
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      4 months ago

      Huh. OK, so I boiled away more of my precious time on this plane of reality chasing links and reading old Wikipedia arguments instead of doing something healthy, like discovering a new genre of porn. Anyway, one of TW’s complaints is that “outlets like PinkNews […] are treated as reliable despite long histories of misconduct”. He points to a discussion thread where PinkNews was supposedly deemed to be terrible, horrible, no good and very bad despite David Gerard saying it was basically fine. But the analysis proving that PinkNews is terrible, horrible, etc., is itself weirdly bad. I mean, take a look at this:

      Another example of a dodgy source is at is [11]. where the claim “Queer-coding has affected many fictional villains. These evil characters are generally either shown as flamboyant and overly dramatic, like Disney characters Scar and Hades, or written as having a deep fixation on the main character, like Jafar, Kim Possible villain Shego and Catra from She-Ra and the Princesses of Power. In the past few decades, Disney fans have seen Governor Ratcliffe and Professor Ratigan—as well as Scar, Jafar and Hades—being portrayed as queer characters.” The source for this claim? A Twitter tweet by “Jay, a self-described ‘transmasc enby’ who uses they/he pronouns”.

      But the story doesn’t actually use that “Twitter tweet” as the source. It just springboards from a viral tweet to talking about the larger picture. The tweet didn’t say any of the specifics that PinkNews supposedly sourced to it. And the claim that Disney villains have been queer-coded is … not exactly shocking. I mean, just look up any of the authors that James Somerton plagiarized.

      Or consider this article,[12] with the breathless headline “Star Trek: Picard season finale sees iconic character finally come out as queer, inspiring a million new fan fictions. The Star Trek: Picard season finale has confirmed a same-sex romance for iconic character Seven of Nine, and fans are thrilled.” The evidence? Two characters holding hands. In a series that already had more than one openly gay couple and thus no real reason to be ambiguous.

      Well, actually, Star Trek: Picard did not “already” have “more than one openly gay couple”. Star Trek: Discovery had one, and the Kelvin timeline movies had a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it implication of one. The PinkNews article didn’t just go aflutter over two characters holding hands, but also pointed to an interview with showrunner Michael Chabon:

      There are hints that both Seven and Raffi are bisexual.

      Oh yes. […] With a character like Raffi, to the extend we imagined her history in a fair amount of detail, her history included all kinds of sexual partners. There’s a father of her child, but that was far from her only sexual or life partner. She’s had relationships with all kind of people. If it was ever to come up, it was always going to be organic. […] Same thing with Seven of Nine, having to catch up after such along absence from the human race. If you think about that, it almost seems unnatural that she wouldn’t’ have had partners of other genders. It seems clear she would have. So even if we didn’t see that on Voyager, years have passed. In that time, she’s continued to explore the spectrum of human relationships in a broader way. So in our show, there are echos and implications of that.

      And it’s not like the article was actually wrong, was it? Jeri Ryan said that Seven is “canonically bi”, and the Seven/Raffi romance went on to become a whole thing.

      I won’t go to bat for PinkNews being good, but this investigation of what’s wrong with it is itself irritatingly flawed and superficial.

      • V0ldek@awful.systems
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        4 months ago

        I wonder why they take issue specifically with articles about LGBTQ+, has to be a complete coincidence and in no way a reflection of their bigotry, huh

    • scruiser@awful.systems
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      4 months ago

      Reddit can be really hit or miss, but I’m glad subredditdrama and /r/wikipedia aren’t buying TWG’s bullshit. Well, some of the /r/wikipedia assume TWG is merely butthurt over losing edit wars as opposed to a more advanced agenda, but that is fair of them.

    • TinyTimmyTokyo@awful.systems
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      4 months ago

      I’m noticing that people who criticize him on that subreddit are being downvoted, while he’s being upvoted.

      I wouldn’t be surprised if, as part of his prodigious self-promotion of this overlong and tendentious screed, he’s steered some of his more sympathetic followers to some of these forums.

      • blakestacey@awful.systemsM
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        4 months ago

        It occurs to me that, intentionally or not, he’s probably steering TESCREAL types to Wikipedia itself as well. I wouldn’t be surprised if accounts were coming out of the woodwork to post multi-kiloword screeds about Wikipedia being soooo unfairrrr…

          • Amoeba_Girl@awful.systems
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            4 months ago

            It’s like these people are enforcing a facade of polite tone and measuredness as a way to launder literal intellectual terrorism! Dang!

            • froztbyte@awful.systems
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              4 months ago

              Remember Oswald Mosley

              (specifically the bit where he and his kept getting facepunched, along with their little gatherings disrupted and made extremely unpopular for establishments to host)

            • Soyweiser@awful.systems
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              4 months ago

              Saw somebody on r/ssc go ‘why do they always focus on roko’s basilisk and never any of the more important things like Yuds lack of qualifications or academic rigor’ and saw them also lol that we here apparently didn’t want to spend the 2hs to read it (and well that woulds also require 4h+ to then respond about all the various weird inaccuracies). Which is was an amusing few posts. Yeah, we don’t have the energy/desire to read all those posts, but neither do you as Yuds lack of qualifications etc comes up quite often.

              • blakestacey@awful.systemsM
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                4 months ago

                They want sneers about Yud’s lack of qualifications? Fine:

                Noncy prig who never went to high school founded a cult for people who can’t leave it behind! How’s about that, eh?

                • Soyweiser@awful.systems
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                  4 months ago

                  Yeah mentioned it does come up quite often, but rokos basilisk just is funnier.

                  E: flannyo (used to post in sneerclub) is in that thread and actually arguing with people and pushing back on the post a bit. Which isn’t going super badly compared to if you tried something like that on themotte vs r/ssc.

          • froztbyte@awful.systems
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            4 months ago

            literal brigading

            hopefully this gets shut down hard at all the places they try to fuck with. we’ve already had 2 cases too many of jonringer this year

            • earthquake@lemm.ee
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              4 months ago

              Trace RTs someone hoping aloud that his nonsense gets laundered by an RS, then breathlessly reports on his literal transparent brigade getting unbanned using a very strained appeal to WP:AGF, so I am starting to get a picture of his end-goal.

              • flere-imsaho@awful.systems
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                4 months ago

                it’s good the rats can’t help themselves but to brag about what they’re doing – in at least three different public places.

              • blakestacey@awful.systemsM
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                4 months ago

                (looks up meaning of WP:AGF)

                … Yeah, that site is probably not the right hobby for me.

                (looks up the LessWrong discussion page)

                My God, it’s full of smeg

            • Soyweiser@awful.systems
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              4 months ago

              Annoying that TWG is also doing the slimy thing which is so common in internet trolling nowadays. The text says ‘im not a reliable source’ the subtext (or well with this retweet, text) says ‘make my post a reliable source and attack David’.

              (What makes this even worse is that the weird far rightwingers from themotte see all leftwingers as behaving like this, and the to them super leftwing TWG is feeding into their stereotypes. Well done on feeding the far right propaganda machine).

        • scruiser@awful.systems
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          4 months ago

          His replies have gone up in upvotes substantially since yesterday, so it looks like a bit of light brigading is going on.

  • blakestacey@awful.systemsM
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    4 months ago

    Classics in the replies:

    If you think wikipedia is bad see arstecnica chat. On covid immunity chat I respectfully said natural covid immunity as good got ad hominem reply. I cited ars policy against ad hominem. 5 min later moderator kicked me out for 2 weeks

    Btw, I saw on Reddit how the people of r/wikipedia attacked you for being a nazi and supporting the “conspirational theory” of cultural marxism

    Midwits at best

    If I had fans like these, I’d like to think that I’d re-evaluate some life choices.

    • YouKnowWhoTheFuckIAM@awful.systems
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      4 months ago

      Conspiration should totally be a thing. “Omg, your 30,000 word Grassy Knoll post was conspirational!”, “Just the conspiration I need while I drink my defluoridated coffee and put on my tin foil hat to not go to work every morning!”

  • BigMuffin69@awful.systems
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    4 months ago

    Without fail in the comments section, we have Daniel Kokotajlo (the philosophy student turned ai safety advocate who recently got canned at OAI) making the claim that “we [ = Young Daniel and our olde friend Big Yud] are AI experts and believe that risking full scale nuclear war over data centers is actually highly rational^{tm}” :)

    …anyways, what were we saying about David Gerard being a bad faith actor again?

    • Soyweiser@awful.systems
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      4 months ago

      The comments are quite a selection of typical things. ‘harassing innocent IQ researchers’ ‘the sneerclubbers are all losers who hate crypto’ etc etc. Hitting the familiar beats.

      • YouKnowWhoTheFuckIAM@awful.systems
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        4 months ago

        Honestly I’ve made it my life’s purpose to be a loser by the standards these people set, and succeeded beyond either of our wildest dreams

        • Soyweiser@awful.systems
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          4 months ago

          I’m just an even bigger loser than they already think irl. They can’t properly imagine the depth of my loserdom.

  • self@awful.systemsM
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    4 months ago

    In April 2014, Gerard created a RationalWiki article about Effective Altruism, framing the subculture as “well-off libertarians congratulating each other on what wonderful human beings they are for working rapacious [s—]weasel jobs but choosing their charities well, but never in any way questioning the system that the problems are in the context of,” “a mechanism to push the libertarian idea that charity is superior to government action or funding,” and people who “will frequently be seen excusing their choice to work completely [f—]ing evil jobs because they’re so charitable.”

    it’s fucking amazing how accurate this is, and almost a decade before SBF started explaining himself and never stopped

    • 200fifty@awful.systems
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      My main thought reading through this whole thing was like, “okay, in a world where the rationalists weren’t closely tied to the neoreactionaries, and the effective altruists weren’t known by the public mostly for whitewashing the image of a guy who stole a bunch of people’s money, and libertarians and right-wingers were supported by the mainstream consensus, I guess David Gerard would be pretty bad for saying those things about them. Buuuut…”

  • Mike Knell@blat.at
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    4 months ago

    @Starseeder As someone with ADHD the only thing I find harder to cope with than the crazy, in-crowd bureaucracy of Wikipedia is attempting to read that mile-long polemic. Where do they find the time to write this shit?

    • Soyweiser@awful.systems
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      4 months ago

      The lesswrong Rationalist sphere people all write like this. And I assume he gets paid via various podcasts/substack subs/a patreon. So this is prob mostly their job.

    • Starseeder@awful.systemsOP
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      4 months ago

      I don’t know i had to skim it too. Its hard to see what point he’s trying to make. I can see why many of wikis choices are shit but he also seems to complain about takis magazine being removed witch just seems like a sensible choice. And he’s still up on his high horse about that conference where HBD people were invited to speak. They think “rationality” is about seeking heterodox thinkers but you don’t see anyone who believes in shit like miasma theory or any other discredited idea besides race there.

    • Amoeba_Girl@awful.systems
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      4 months ago

      I’n not joking when I say he’s probably using an LLM to write this junk. It reads like it, and he’s already perfectly comfortable with illustrating his diatribes with embarrassing midjourney slop.

  • ebu@awful.systems
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    4 months ago

    What of the sources he is less favorably inclined towards? Unsurprisingly, he dismisses far-right websites like Taki’s Magazine (“Terrible source that shouldn’t be used for anything, except limited primary source use.”) and Unz (“There is no way in which using this source is good for Wikipedia.”) in a virtually unanimous chorus with other editors. It’s more fruitful to examine his approach to more moderate or “heterodox” websites.

    wait sorry hold on

    in a virtually unanimous chorus with other editors

    so what is the entire point of singling out Gerard for this, if the overwhelming majority of people already agree that far-right “news” sites like the examples given are full of garbage and shouldn’t be cited?

    Note: I am closer to this story than to many of my others

    ahhhhhhh David made fun of some rationalist you like once and in turn you’ve elevated him to the Ubermensch of Woke, didn’t you

    • Phil@awful.systems
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      4 months ago

      For the rat & rat-adjacent soi-disant “communities” David is like the bogeyman. You see his name used in places like SSC to stand in for the otherwise nameless woke menace that’s coming for their precious bodily fluids.

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        4 months ago

        the otherwise nameless woke menace that’s coming for their precious bodily fluids.

        aaaaargh I wish I could draw.

    • TinyTimmyTokyo@awful.systems
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      4 months ago

      what is the entire point of singling out Gerard for this?

      He’s playing to his audience, which includes a substantial number of people with lifetime subscriptions to the Unz Review, Taki’s crapazine and Mankind Quarterly.