• naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    11·
    1 day ago

    Awww come on, you know you post bait. A lot of the more aggro users are pretty young and very online, you know how the all feed works. You’ve either gotta aggressive ban arguing or it just turns into this.

    Like with this comic, which is kinda funny, it’s a superficial view of sometimes really complex and for people perhaps too invested in the complexities it’s like whatever the rage-virus version of catnip is.

    I dunno about the working together stuff. The people I’ve found the most useful in union movements tends to be pretty dogmatic about Lenin. I lean syndicalist myself - believing that unless we control work and train people in democracy that way we’ll be destroyed by police - so that might be my own lens on things but a lot of self identifying anarchists aren’t the most practical of people.

    • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.comOPM
      31·
      1 day ago

      Awww come on, you know you post bait. A lot of the more aggro users are pretty young and very online, you know how the all feed works. You’ve either gotta aggressive ban arguing or it just turns into this.

      Well that’s the thing, I post “bait” from all angles. Just look at my posts in /flippanarchy about liberal electoralism. I get swarmed by libs frothing at the mouth about “vote blue no matter who” (and I’m not even USian). If I consistently avoid all anarchist topics which enrage terminally online weirdoes, I might as well close down this comm, yanno?

      Anarchist agitation just happens to looks like “bait” with those it criticizes.

      so that might be my own lens on things but a lot of self identifying anarchists aren’t the most practical of people.

      Counterpoint: the IWW

      But yes, there’s lifestyle anarchists out there, as much as there’s tankie LARPers who put on ushankas and dress in red. Likewise I’ve seen a ton more hypocrisy in meatspace ML circles than online ones, but I’ve also witnessed anarchist crustpunks who are toxic to the working class. There’s shitty people in all areas, but historically we can clearly see that anarchist praxis does bring the goods.

      • naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        7·
        1 day ago

        historically we can clearly see that anarchist praxis does bring the goods.

        TBH outside of some examples like mondragon (more Basque than anarchist) and the zapatistas it kinda seems like we’re getting fucking owned. The left in general seems like it’s getting fucking owned. It’s one of the things that keeps me up at night.

          • naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            2·
            23 hours ago

            Describing china as leftist is kinda funny. They’re defs more welfare oriented than neoliberal countries but after the reforms shit is a bit of a joke.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
              6·
              21 hours ago

              Public ownership is the principle aspect of their economy, the large firms and key industries are thoroughly owned by the state, and the proletariat is in control politically. It certainly has a long way to go as it develops through socialism, but the ultraleftism of the Gang of Four and the late Mao period were ultimately not based on materialism, but an egotistical desire to try to acheive communism well before it could actually be.

              The reforms were a calculated and sober return to more traditional Marxist understanding. The Gang of Four were dogmatically high on their own supply, and thought, legitimately, that it would be better to have worse material conditions in a more planned economy than introduce controlled market reforms and achieve higher levels of material conditions and metrics for the working class.

              I understand that it isn’t anarchist, not by any stretch, but it appears to have paid off quite well so far. Growth is more consistent, stable, and rapid than before, and that’s referring to the material conditions of the working class, not just profits.

            • bort [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
              4·
              20 hours ago

              They’re an economy dominated by the state in the interest of the people, rather than by capitalists in the interest of capitalists.

              China’s imperfect but it’s the best we’ve got.

        • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.comOPM
          3·
          1 day ago

          Capitalist propaganda has been very effective when things were going up in the everything bubble, but these things quickly change as the system instabilities accumulate. Ultimately it doesn’t matter if “the left is getting owned”. Acting prefiguratively does improve our lives in the here and now so we just keep agitating for those methods, that’s the beauty of it.

          • naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            7·
            1 day ago

            It would be silly of me to disavow prefiguration when my primary interaction with lemmy has been making it melt down with how vegan I am :p

            But I guess that’s where these navel-gazey comics and internet slapfights rub me the wrong way. To get where we need to be we don’t need a billion anarchists, we need a billion people willing to ignore lords and masters. Agitation focused on waking people up to the flaws in liberal capitalism rather than agitation that fragments the already prostrate left seems more useful to me.

            • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.comOPM
              3·
              1 day ago

              That’s the thing, I don’t think there’s anything to divide. Anarchists have not been united with MLs since the first international. We just have non-compatible praxis and our actions will lead to severely different results. I think it’s important to remind people of that now and then. I’m OK with working with MLs who follow anarchist praxis, but I also know we must remain vigilant for entryism and takeovers of our orgs.