- cross-posted to:
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- cross-posted to:
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cross-posted from: https://slrpnk.net/post/13958637
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To everyone pearl clutching in response to this correct meme with one of the following phrases:
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“That’s how you create an echo chamber”
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“paradox of intolerance doesn’t say how to fight fascism”
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“This is about silencing opposing thought”
I would like to take this moment to remind you that the paradox of intolerance isn’t about exiling those who disagree on economic policy; it’s about recognizing and directly opposing those who are trying to harm or disadvantage others and doing so in a meaningful way that will actually change the outcome. You can’t debate Hitler out of doing a genocide, but you could have jailed him before he gained power.
Being too spineless to call out and fight intolerance enables fascism. The longer you live wrapped up in your civility politics, the overtones window shifts further right, and it strengthens the fascist support. It happened in pre-WW2 Germany, and it’s being repeated in dozens of countries worldwide. If you feel the urge to block me, go ahead…
…but know that this is your fault
The paradox of intolerance is not a paradox. Tolerance is a social contract, folks who demand us tolerate intolerance are violating the social contract and should be ignored.
Sorry, tone doesn’t come across well. I can’t tell if you’re trying to correct me on a point, because I agree with you.
I read it as continuing your train of thought.
You do indeed agree.
Thank you!
You all should see the shit going on in a post about Gisèle Pelicot where they are literally saying that the tiny fraction of women who commit sexual assault is an excuse for decrying the (absolutely understandably angry) women holding signs that say “NOT ALL MEN BUT ALWAYS A MAN”.
I really fucking despise these false equivalencies.
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But I like seeing the rational debate!
So I can practice spotting fallacies and facepalm when people completely miss the point and counter with something that might be logically sound but is practically terrible.
There’s no reasoning with dishonest bad faith actors
"Faschisten hören niemals auf, Faschisten zu sein
Man diskutiert mit ihnen nicht, hat die Geschichte gezeigt"
“Fascists won’t ever stop being fascists. You don’t argue with them, history has shown that”
Wenn du friedlich gegen die Gewalt nicht ankommen kannst, ist das letzte Mittel das uns allen bleibt Militanz
You can’t debate someone that isn’t arguing in good faith, and these people never ever are. Yeet and move on, save your energy for the people that have just been mislead by the altright and may actually change their opinions.
All you can do is force them to face their convictions. What happens after that is up to them. Just do what Tim Walz did to JD Vance when he asked about the election results, and bluntly ask the root question.
“Do you think migrants are less important than citizens? What about men vs. women? Or gay people vs. straight people? Or trans people vs. cisgender people?”
“Do you think that the government should force people to follow your religion? If the government picked a different religion than yours, would you just agree to follow it?”
The paradox of intolerance demonstrates how fascism comes to power, not how to stop it.
Found the apologist.
Why does everybody online insist on misusing “centrist” and “moderate” when they’re talking about spineless, bitch-ass accomplices? An actual centrist in America in 2024 would be very progressive relative to most of the country. It’s a good place to be.
The comic specifically calls out apologists. The kind that say “both sides equally bad” when both sides are most assuredly not equally bad. Or that try to suggest there can be anything meaningful gained from discussion with hateful intolerant people. They paint themselves as centrist. It’s not really misusing it.
i’ve actually been thinking this recently. what actually is a centrist? i feel most who claim themselves to be centrist are actually conservatives…
They attack centrists to maintain the two party divide. If you don’t agree with one side, you are seen as an ally of the other.
I am mostly euro-centrist. In America, I would be far left.
Unfortunately, large sections of the Fediverse are slowly turning into bubbled echo chambers, each enforcing their own purist “correctness”.
They’re throwing anybody with remotely different opinions out the window whilst slowly shifting their overton window off into fantasy land.
They attack centrists to maintain the two party divide. If you don’t agree with one side, you are seen as an ally of the other.
I am mostly euro-centrist. In America, I would be far left.
I will say one thing, this thread has let me know which accounts I need to block.
If you would like to be added to the list respond to this comment. My bot will take care of it if you haven’t already been added.
Go ahead then. Have a nice life.
Edit: I mean, how are you going to argue against echo chambers, then turn around and hide inside one? Come on, buddy.
So brave 🤡
You should engage them in debate though. The people who need to do so are always such cowards that they’d rather ban and run.
It’s easy as fuck to outmaneuver one of those dipshits. And it’s funny as fuck when they stomp off mad because you made them look like an idiot.
But it’s not a debate. They have no interest in listening to you, any facts you present, nor presenting any disputing facts.
Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it. ― George Bernard Shaw
I’d argue it’s better to make fun of the fascists!
But it’s not a debate. They have no interest in listening to you,
Adam doesn’t debate Bob to convince Bob of Adam’s viewpoint. Adam debates Bob to convince their shared audience: Charlie, David, Edward, Frank, George, Harry…
When Bob is ejected from this forum, Charlie, (et al), never hear that debate and are never convinced of Adam’s views. They aren’t inoculated against Bob’s logic. When they come across Bob uncontested in another forum, they may be persuaded; they fall into his echo chamber. When they bring their half-formed ideas back to your forum, they are banned as apologists rather than debated.
Ejecting Bob makes your forum better. Adam debating Bob makes the world better.
But it’s not a debate. They have no interest in listening to you, any facts you present, nor presenting any disputing facts.
the debate is not for them. it is for potential impartial observer who just encountered the problem for the first time and is now forming an opinion.
unfortunately it is really hard, because since the onset of the machine learning generators the pile of crap is literally endless.
Satire is an avenue of argument though.
Nevermind pig blocked.
Blocked
Fascism demands a response. When it stands without objection, it grows. We are obligated to respond, less to convince the fascist to change their ways, and more to extend a branch to those passers-by who might get swept away.
Sometimes that responder is me. Sometimes it should be you.
The response in this context is a preemptive: “not welcome here”. We’ve all heard what the fascists have to say, and it’s worthless. Zero tolerance for fascists.
The response can also be a closed fist or the end of a bayonet.
Not a first goal, but still a time tested answer.
Sometimes that is the best response.
It’s the only worthwhile response. If you try to debate them, they will just toy with you and give garbage arguments, then go silent when they run out of useless arguments.
Your objective should not be to convince the bigot. Your objective should be to convince the curious bystander.
I’ll disagree here. We have rules, and when we ignore those rules, we become what we despise.
I fully agree. Why have a forum if you’re not going to use it to show how stupid chuds really are?
You both don’t realize the sheer volume of chuds. It’s great, until you realize it’s endless.
We outnumber them.
That doesnt matter, it’s orders of magnitude faster to generate their BS than it is to write even one well-reasoned rebuttal.
That may be true, but have you considered the space lizards? They’re the ones controlling the whether or not your child gets an armed babysitter or transed when they use the litter box at school.
All I know is that the lead-poisoned boomers are going to die soon and we won’t have nearly as much of that bullshit to deal with.
Sadly they passed on their bullshit.
I don’t think they really have.
The election results all over the world say otherwise
Those are just the people that vote. If we didn’t have MLs telling each other that voting is useless maybe the election results would be different.
Those are just the people that vote
and those are only people that matter.
If we didn’t have (…)
if my aunt had wheels, she would be a bike.
Maybe try it before you give up?
You do realize this is an argument for an echo chamber right? Banning Centrists and Opposition means you only have Supporters.
Edit: After much consideration you’re right most of this thread is getting blocked.
Because leftists are a famously cohesive bunch that don’t constantly infight
This meme isn’t about fighting or debating it’s about silencing, and silencing the middle ground. Not even those that oppose but those that question.
Nevermind, blocked.
What is being silenced is Bigotry. What happens when you allow bigots to openly be bigots into a lot of spaces you make the place hostile to the targets of those bigots. It’s one philosophy of space moderation to create areas where bigots and bigotry does not immediately become the entire focus of a places ecosystem so those targeted communities have places they can participate where they are accepted as normal. Because if nobody chooses that option you as a target always have to approach socializing on the internet as a risk and comfort is always denied you.
It doesn’t have to be and usually isn’t every space. Within the left there is advocacy for “holding spaces” where people are allowed to be horrible so that they can be approached and taught, debated and if they show desires to be better, not treated hostility in the moment. But it is accepted that those spaces are not comfortable places for the targets of bigotry to dwell. It’s a dangerzone.
So please stop this “silencing” nonsense. Yes, moderation teams pick their intended level of anti-bigotry safety vs holding space mentality. Other places where bigots accrue unchanged exist. If you want to do outreach you can pick your venue from a wide selection.
I was the apple in the meme like 10 years ago and my opinions on the matter were not worth listening to. It’s sophistry meant to distract from the actual discussion being had.
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Blocked
An echo chamber where the barriers are “don’t advocate for bigotry” and “don’t be a bigot”? Damn. Mighty big echo chamber ya got here. You can fit all sorts of amicable disagreements in here. Hell, you can even fit nearly uncivil ones too! Boy howdy there sure is a lot of space to disagree when the limits are this far out.
That’s great if you can trust the moderation/censorship team to use a rational definition of bigotry. But what usually happens is they begin to enforce the standards of an ever-closing Overton window, to the point that mere disagreement with the hive mind is considered bigotry.
The limits of discourse never stay “this far out”. Moderation distills this enforced consensus into a weird, unhinged fanaticism, one “deviant” at a time.
I have no respect for the term bigot as I have been called one for being antireligious in a pro-trans thread. But keep pushing a generic narrative that is anti-bigot. I’m sure it will never be used against you. It’s not like that’s a historic authoritarian tool to shut down critical speech.
Limiting Speech is a peace treaty that should only get invoked when it’s broken.
Centrist policies aren’t the issue. It’s the apologists for intolerant bigots that paint themselves centrists. All apologists for bigots are bad, and almost all of them paint themselves centrist. But not all centrists are bigot apologists.
And yet the meme calls for the silencing of centrists. It’s in the fucking title.
The title could say “fuck your mother in particular” for all it matters. The comic says centrist apologists.
Edit: After much consideration you’re right most of this thread is getting blocked.
Yes, yes. You keep saying. Too bad, you had so much good content to share 😢 we’ll all be missing out for sure once you block us all.
The fastest way to an echo chamber is to ignore everyone who disagrees with you.
You should be intelligent enough and convicted in your understanding of any point you argue strongly, that you will be able to identify an irrational or false argument.
Otherwise when someone you disagree with has a good point that improves your view point, you will miss it.
Take the show always sunny in philadelphia. The characters are all examples of absolutely terrible people. We use their idiocy, bigotry, racism and general prejudice to further confirm our beliefs and views on any topic.
It is healthy to listen to bad takes.
You should be intelligent enough and convicted in your understanding of any point you argue strongly, that you will be able to identify an irrational or false argument.
yeah, no.
“identifying irrational and false argument” takes time and we have only limited amount of it here on earth. also, once you have identified irrational and false argument, there is no need to do it over and over again. we are under no obligation to sort through a pile of crap just to show we are the better people (whatever that phrase means for anyone)
and i say that as someone who was recently banned for “trolling” by some kid on a power trip to protect his cult from my arguments, so i should have understanding for your line of reasoning, but i don’t.
as always in life, it is a matter of degree and it can be relative (which is the phrase that irself can be used to excuse almost anything, 😂)
Wait, because your time is limited on earth, you shouldn’t learn how to identify bad actors? I think it’s a pretty basic and vital skill. Am i misunderstanding you. Are you saying we should all be gullible fools and rely on some unknown force to sheild us from bad arguments?
you shouldn’t learn how to identify bad actors?
bad actor is not the same as bad argument. once you know someone is bad actor, you can just ignore them or kick them out and you don’t have to bother with dissecting every single one of their sentences.
for example, after reading multiple comments by you, mainly defending asshole’s right to bother others because what if they had some brilliant thought one day, i have come to conclusion that i don’t want to waste any more time on your bad trolling and i am perfectly fine risking that i will miss some brilliant thought by you. welcome to my blocklist.
The fastest way to an echo chamber is to ignore everyone who disagrees with you.
This isn’t about the entire set of people who disagree.
It is a waste of time to engage some kinds of people. They are not acting in good faith.
There’s a Sartre quote about it
Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
I believe it helps to be able to identify bad faith actors. If you have never heard their arguments before then you run the risk of not realising its a bad faith argument. This could mean you end up taking them seriously.
Let me help you out:
There are NO sound arguments for racism, fascism etc.
None.
There is no point in listening to racists and fascists.
Ever.
but if you are lazy or dumb debater, it is quite easy to label anything with any negative word you pull out of your hat in order to avoid the discussion that is hard for you.
Who said there was? Dont try to strawman this. You are missing the point. And your condescension is unwarranted.
No, there is no sound argument for racism, and when you hear an argument for it, you identify its nonsense and move on. But that doesn’t mean there are no sound arguments for other things you disagree with.
Frankly, anyone can point at something that is morally wrong and say it’s wrong. That doesn’t make YOU right. Thats just essentially virtue signalling.
I disagree with fascists and racists too. But im sure there is something else out there we disagree on, such as whether or not you should block people who disagree with you.
My point is that you can’t arrive at what is right without knowing what is wrong and you can’t know what is wrong if you block everyone who disagrees with you.
You also cant rule out a person having a good take just because they also have some bad takes.
such as whether or not you should block people who disagree with you.
I don’t think anyone was making the argument to block everyone who disagrees with you. If someone wants to do a social intrigue game in DND I’m going to think that’s not the best tool for the job, but I’m not going to block them.
If someone’s like “women shouldn’t be allowed to vote” then that’s a whole different kind of disagreement.
My point is that you can’t arrive at what is right without knowing what is wrong and you can’t know what is wrong if you block everyone who disagrees with you.
I don’t know if that’s true? I don’t need to see every variation of racist argument to identify racism is bad. You don’t need to know the full set of possibilities to pick a good one. Like, you probably have reasonable interactions with dogs on the street and never considered going on all fours and aggressively pissing and howling before.
I think some of the confusion here might be that this comic is specifically referencing booting out bigots and their apologists.
if someone is willing to argue in bad faith (in this case, specifically bigots), there is no reason to listen to that or anything else they have to say since they’ve shown they are willing to argue in bad faith at all. I also think anyone who is an apologist of them is also not worth listening to because they are in bad faith by proxy.
that being said, it’s perfectly okay to have people arguing in good faith while coming to different conclusions. there can be disagreement and that is healthy as you’ve said.
This only applies though if the bigot or their apologist is willing to have an honest discussion with good intentions. The problem with tolerating them is that they do not have any respect for truth, or in having an honest discussion. Engaging with that is beyond pointless as the best it serves is to show people that already understand it to be bad that it is bad. And at worst it will confuse someone who doesn’t understand or reason well into siding with bigotry.
All this discussion of “well people should know and be able to reason” falls flat when you look at examples around the world where intolerant bigots were tolerated. The US and Germany are two examples I can think of off the top of my head. The US has a felon, fascist, wannabe dictator as one option and he has an honest chance of winning. Then in Germany they are having essentially a resurgence of the Nazi party in AfD and it’s been gaining traction, particularly in eastern states from what I’ve read.
Bigotry and hatred don’t need a platform. They do fine on their own. Giving them shelter only creates issues. You don’t need to see their arguments because their arguments don’t come from reason but from spite and they have no intention of fair engagement.
The US has a felon, fascist, wannabe dictator as one option and he has an honest chance of winning. Then in Germany they are having essentially a resurgence of the Nazi party in AfD and it’s been gaining traction, particularly in eastern states from what I’ve read.
I would argue that both cases are products of echo chambers rather than insufficient moderation.
I mean, those bigots don’t silence themselves when you ban them. They are still talking, just in forums that will ban you for daring to rebut them.
Because censorship creates the echo chambers that allow bigotry to thrive, censorship is a much greater problem than bigotry.
Found another one of them.
Just in case it’s not clear, there are indeed people with ideas so toxic and so dangerous they need to be removed. Otherwise they will ruin it for everyone. When you tolerate the intolerant, tolerance is eventually seized and destroyed by the intolerant.
This isn’t a case of disagreeing, this is by far the most common misrepresentation that centrist apologists use to try and vilify the banning and ostracizing of bigots and harmful ideology. There is no comparison to disagreeing about flavors of ice cream, to not wanting someone who hates trans people in your community where trans people hang out. Any attempt to do so is a bad faith comparison, because they are not equivalent.
there are indeed people with ideas so toxic and so dangerous they need to be removed.
Probably. But the argument is about who gets to decide who they, not whether they exist.
Nazis are identified by their affiliation with the Nazi party. People you think are Nazis are identified by your opinion of them and absolutely nothing more.
If you could provide an objective definition of these ‘apologists’, we might have something to discuss, but clearly there can be no such definition, these are not facts like the shape of the earth or the speed of light.
We (almost) all agree that some levels of intolerance should not be tolerated, what we disagree on is which opinions confer such a status on someone.
The line is where their words cross over from speech to violence. When they call for eliminating people from society, you can remove them by the same methods they advocate.
“Toxic and dangerous” are relative terms. When the moderation team closes the Overton window enough that Chocolate ice cream qualifies as “toxic”, the only dissent you can still have is between natural and artificial vanilla flavoring.
How do you know what a toxic idea is if you never hear one. It is helpful to know what is wrong when trying to determine what is right.
I never said let people with bad takes in. I said hear them and disagree with them. Having such terrible takes in the air is a great way to strengthen your position when you are able to point out the absurdity of the bad argument.
If we close ourselves off to all the arguments we dont like then we run the risk of becoming so entrenched in our own opinion being the only right one that we never let anyone tell us we are wrong.
Finding the right path is a group effort, and it takes good and bad views to get there.
Just look at your agument, its so matter of fact. It feels like you have determined the correct position so all other views are wrong. The opening sentence “found another one” is enough to see this. You arent right automatically because you have had enough people agree with you. Especially whn you reject any opposing or even slightly different view point.
Honestly if you start to suck like the bigots, it’s no surprise you would start to claim that anyone who points that out is a “centrist” bigot too to be yeeted away.
Sometimes I feel like people who want to fight bitotry have become cartoons doint a black and white evil vs good. Nope sorry. The world is not so clear cut. It’s a mess. And the word “centrist” can now also be used for censorship. Congratulations. You suck just as much as the bigots now. Hope it “helped” to adopt their tactics! 🤣
Nah mate, you can’t tolerate the intolerant. That’s how you end up with a nazi pub.
That’s right the intolerant broke the peace treaty. The centrists advocated tolerance. This is a call to silence dissent and criticism, that’s different.
Nevermind blocked.
I don’t agree with you
Blocked
Lol.
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You just said nothing at all, my friend. Were you accusing the poster? Was it satirical? Was it serious? Nobody knows. Who is the clown? Is it OP? Is it yourself, the general public, some sucker who replied to you?
Which is a nice example of how the Internet is weird. Not great for making a point, tho. :-)
Might not be great, but you saw a point. So, hey if it works…
Much better to spread the accepted hate than to be rational.
