75% of the anti-piracy discussions I see rarely blame companies like Nintendo or Disney and always try to talk about how piracy is immoral, and you should feel “dirty” for doing it. My question is why do people seem to hate those who pirate more than the bad practices of mega-corporations or the fact that they don’t want to preserve their media?
I blame the “piracy is stealing” advertising/propaganda. It was super effective, given that we all remember it.
Editing to add one of my favorite videos in the other direction, Copying is Not Theft.
I don’t remember ever seeing such an advertisement in my life.
YOU WOULDN’T DOWNLOAD A CAR
I totally would
In this day, I’m pretty sure the entirety of the middle class and below would if they could.
and then download a house
That “you wouldn’t download a car” became the meme while the ad itself said “you wouldn’t steal a car” drives home exactly how effective these ads were at conflating the two.
NOT ONLY WOULD I DOWNLOAD A CAR, I WOULD THEN WORK ON A WAY TO LET EVERYONE DOWNLOAD CARS
Sharing is caring ♥️
You’ve never seen this? Never heard “home taping is killing music” or “don’t copy that floppy”?
No to all of those. I don’t remember ever seeing a floppy. Oldest media formats I remember using are cds and cassettes. And that was in elementary school.
ig the piracy is theft advertising was more of a 90s thing that died down in the 2000s if those are your examples?
Yeah, I guess so. Best I can recall, most people I knew were either avid pirates or casually saw it as low-level criminal activity by the early 2000s.
Propaganda works.
The put out a lot of propaganda saying that copying files is stealing. They point to intellectual property rights laws as if that means intellectual property is justified because of the existence of laws.
Ignorant idiots who can’t think for themselves will always follow the narrative that is forced down their throat.
See also “The war on drugs”. The majority of the people who will demonise you for choosing to use “illegal” substances will also be smashing their livers with alcohol which is more detrimental to both themselves and society than a lot of other drugs on a weekly or often daily basis.
Just because it is legal they feel like they are fine to not do their own independent research into what these things actually do to them and how fucking addictive they are.
They’re just outsourcing their ethics.
I still see people parroting these narratives about stuff like weed even after it has been legalized. Some people are too far down the propaganda rabbit hole.
just conversely, I think people were a bit too convinced that weed is totally harmless for a while there. i think in more recent years there’s been some healthy pushback on that and people understand the science a bit better. obviously it should still be legal.
I’d argue those people were necessary, what with how public opinion works.
If we’re in a tug of war and you’re pulling with 10 pounds of force, I can’t beat you with 2 pounds of force. In context, you won’t beat “ITLL MAKE YOU GO BLIND AND KILL YOU” with “heeey, like, jot always, maaaannnnn.”
As always, reality is somewhere in the middle, but we wouldn’t have had the progress we did without the other extreme being loud and out there.
Man, i love Recettear: An Item Shop’s Tale. I’m always happy seeing it referenced.
I feel like I could probably use that one reference in every other negative thread about the world these days, great game though!
I dont think using drugs regularly is comparable to pirating software. Pirating isnt going to affect your ability to reason or think. I also wouldnt use the legality of alcohol as an excuse to do other drugs, especially opioids.
It sounds like you are frustrated that people who also do bad things will judge you for doing other bad things, which makes them hypocrites. But it also means you agree with them to a degree that what you are doing is a bad thing, doesnt it?
Lol wut.
I wasn’t comparing regular drug use to pirating software, I was comparing the disinformation campaigns that are used to present bare faced lies as facts to make people feel bad about the decisions they make in life to further serve their controlling narratives.
To be more specific when writing that comment I was mainly thinking about the racist, oppressive campaign that has been perpetuated around weed and its use when compared to alcohol. Weed was originally made illegal due to predominantly the United States campaign of hate against people of colour and specifically pushed in an attempt to oppress those communities. These campaigns have been based on disinformation and lies all whilst alcohol has been pushed as a thing you should partake in.
In actuality alcohol is more addictive, harmful to your body and society in general than weed ever has been or ever will be. That isn’t to say that weed is entirely harmless, I dont mean to suggest that either but really my comment wasn’t meant to begin a debate on the safety or lack of for any specific drugs, more to draw a parallel in terms of how people are lied to and manipulated in the ways that they think to then judge or look down on others because they are so wrapped up in believing the false narratives that are pushed.
Sticking with weed some of the world is now turning it around but yes I am frustrated to still live in a country that puts weed alongside stuff like opiods which are not even comparable in terms of addiction and damage that they do to peoples lives. So maybe you are getting a sense of frustration from that fact but I also couldn’t care less if anyone is judging me for doing any kinds of drugs. I have heavily researched any substances I have taken before I’ve taken it, I have looked into positives and negatives from as many independent sources as I could, tested me shit and everyone should have unbiased information to be able to do the same in their lives and choose what they want to put in their body.
You say bad things like drugs are bad things, I dont believe that so I couldn’t possibly agree that by taking drugs anyone is doing a “bad thing”. I believe that proper education with actual facts and a solid culture of harm reduction should be in place for people to make educated decisions with what they put in their bodies will always be the best possible route to take rather than prohibition.
The majority of negative experiences, deaths etc stem from people not knowing what they are doing, not knowing proper dosages and from having to buy from a black market where you could in reality be getting any fucking thing rather than what you may want which adds in so many variables and possibilities for it to go wrong. People will always get high and who the fuck is anyone to tell anyone else that they can’t, a regulated system where people don’t have to put themselves in danger buying from the streets would negate so many of the perceived negatives of drug taking.
I also don’t believe at its core piracy is a “bad thing” either so your whole second paragraph is kind of moot to me. Sounds to me you might just be close minded in terms of thinking these things are “bad” so I guess the propaganda has worked on you to a degree also.
Drugs are a great thing coupled with reliable and factual knowledge so judge me all you want for partaking in getting high, having fun and doing what I want in a safe and educated manner :)
Thats great and all but it requires a self-first attitude to feel no remorse over stealing or causing harm to others.
Many addictions start with someone thinking they are smarter than everyone else and have ultimate control over themselves. I wish you the best of luck but your argument in a public space has the potential to inspire someone to harm themselves.
Maybe you should give some thought to why you deserve to make your own rules and yet still participate in society.
And thus the perfect example of the subject of this thread was provided.
x’D
Good one
(Y)
As opposed to everyone else calling them bootlickers, I think there is likely a subset of people like this who are not considering piracy against the big corporations as unethical, but the “trickle down effect” of piracy towards smaller business/individuals.
For example, if you were to pirate Starfield, no one would really care. If you were to pirate something like BlackOps, most people wouldn’t care (and those that do are corporate bootlickers). However, what about pirating indie games, or music VST’s, or circumventing a patreon from someone with under 100 supporters?
There’s two camps when I see anti-piracy comments; the bootlickers, and those that have the idea that pirates pirate everything relentlessly. The fact of the matter is that piracy does not hurt big corporations, but we cannot say that is also true for small developers publishing their game on their own, and vocal anti-piracy, or rather artist-in-mind individuals, will let the world know that we should support independent artsits and not pirate.
Now, whether or not indie games are getting pirated is a whole different story. And really, what this comes down to is just having the opportunity to purchase in a way that supports the pirates ease of access.
Also, it completely ignores the ethical aspect of piracy which is why support a company that doesn’t have your interests at the forefront of its business practices. Which is a very similar reason to decide to not pirate – I enjoy It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia, I would like to see more if it, I will pay Hulu and watch the show to tell them to make more IASIP.
If you like something, don’t pirate it if you want more of it. It’s actually very simple. If you do like it but can’t support it for personal reasons, don’t expect to get more of it.
Which of course, for the anti-piracy crowd is another sentence for, “you didn’t pay to watch it so they cancelled my favorite show!”
Tl;DR - A poor crossover between an individuals enjoyment of corporate content and an supporting independent artists living wage.
This is the best insight on this subject I’ve seen in years. Good stuff.
Capitalism does a very good job at making people who do not and never will hold capital into sheepdogs for the cause. You get someone addicted enough to your slop, they’ll advertise for you, they’ll evangelize for you, they’ll even come report to you who didn’t pay ‘their fair share’ for entry.
They’re well-trained dogs, incog. Might as well ask why a dog chases cars.
There’s propaganda, definitely. Also, there are people who simply don’t care what they watch. They’ll just open Netflix and watch whatever they see on the home screen. It’s hard for them to understand why I might wanna watch some Iranian movie from the 80s.
For me i’m always hearing people complain about these companies bad practices. What you hear is based off of who you listen to.
Alot of “official sources” are actually owned by alot of forprofit corporations, so of course you’re going to hear piracy bad from those outlets.
But if you follow some youtubers, like Yongyea, you will find voices that actively call out companies like Nintendo and ea’s bad practices.
hell yeah i’m the villain of the story, and i love being immoral
People buy into the BS sold by companies, they eat it all up without thinking twice about it. It’s easier to point fingers at each other than at companies when companies are paying so much money to attack end-users.
I can hate bad corporate practices and also think that piracy is stealing. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
Why do people seem like they hate pirates more, to you? Likely a bias because you are a pirate, and not working for a corporation.
In my opinion I hear more critiques of big business than of piracy. I also dont find these threads full of people saying negative things about piracy, but thats a matter of perspective.
I also pirate, but theres a reason I’d rather pay for it if I can afford it.
I also dont find these threads full of people saying negative things about piracy, but thats a matter of perspective.
In my experience, people who are annoyingly judgmental about Piracy irl are not the ones using Text-heavy social media.
In my experience, pirates who are annoyingly trying to find moral reasons to pirate are mostly the ones using text-heavy social media.
Because if you aren’t the bad guys then they’re just essentially the low level stooges of the evil mastermind just doing mundane evil shit for no discernable reason.
Where as if you’re the bad guy they’re virtuous principled people just doing what’s right (allowing them to have complete dominion over the moral high ground)
Or so they think.
It’s law and order with a bit of “thou shall not steal”. There’re people who never question the root cause.
Because they’re consoomers. Consoomers don’t like people who supposedly threaten their product that they shall consoom later.
And consoomers don’t want to make the hand that feeds them angry so they’ll buy into any and every lie that’s been pitched for years about piracy.
“And consoomers don’t want to make the hand that feeds them angry” oh god this is so true. I see a lot of youtubers/bloggers who act on this statement, and it really pisses me off… they can’t even mention “piracy” without saying it’s illegal within the first few seconds of mentioning it, many of these people I feel have already sold their souls to big corporations and others I feel live like they have a gun pointed at them, and so they can only say what is “allowed” and nothing more.
Its fanboy/girlism.
If you pirate content from their favorite author/artist/producer/whatever, basically all of their screeching comes down to a hysterical emotional response that you are hurting a person or group that they worship as God.
They just learn rhetoric to justify their emotions as a side effect, a consequence of wanting to be able to argue against the bad mean people that are hurting their favorite creatives.
They are naive, ignorant or misinformed, immature… usually believing in some kind ‘just world’ type worldview where everything is fair and square actually if you just follow the rules.
They don’t understand that the actual ‘losses’ from piracy are far, far smaller than whatever the RIAA or game studios say it is.
They don’t understand that the people who actually create or perform the art basically get paid a tiny fraction of what their labels or corporate overlords make.
They don’t understand that some people are actually poor, and the poor deserve art as well.
They don’t understand that when a reasonable cost forma product with reasonable ownership rights exist, a great, great many will prefer a streamlined but slightly costly method over a complex but monetarily costless method.
They don’t understand that you don’t really own anything which you can’t use or view or listen to as you please without relying on some proprietary other system which may just poof that ability out of existence one day, without refunding you.
I think piracy is immoral but I still partake in it and I don’t hate anyone for doing so.
It’s like eating meat.
Why do you think piracy is immoral?
The only reason there’s content for us to pirate is because there are still people paying for it. If it weren’t for them, nobody would be spending millions on new movies or games. They’re the ones funding our content, and we’re just freeriding.
I think a good measure for morality is to imagine wether the world would be a better place if everyone acted as I do. In this case, I don’t think it would.
That’s a common misconception. But it’s not true. Artists will keep making art whether they’re paid or not. Anti-piracy rhetoric tends to come from large corporations (AAA game studios, movie studios, publishing houses, record labels) who demand ever-increasing profits, not from the artists themselves. The people who actually do the work to make games, movies, songs, books, whatever are basically never well-paid, instead their corporate overlords make all the profit and pay the people who actually make the art you enjoy as little as they can possibly get away with, just as with every other job under capitalism.
Pirating media does absolutely no harm unless you’re pirating from a small indie creator. But if you just want to play the latest Ubisoft slop or watch the latest Marvel movie, go ahead and pirate. The money you’d spend on them go straight into the pockets of wealthy executives, not to the artists who do the work.
I think it’s objectively a true statement that the vast majority of big budget hollywood movies, video games and TV-series would stop existing if nobody was paying for them.
Obviously not all media would go away. I’ve never gotten paid for my photography or YouTube videos because I’m not making them for money. Same applies to a ton of other content creators as well.
I agree we probably wouldn’t get any more Assassin’s Creed or Deadpool and Wolverine. Very likely those kinds of media would die out in a world where no one pays for media. I have a hard time saying that’s a bad thing. We’d instead have more weird little indie projects, which are so, so much better in every way. But sure, if you feel morally queasy about “stealing” (it’s not stealing, it’s copying) from giant corporations who make artistically bankrupt crap, I’m not going to convince you otherwise, and it would be a waste of my time to try and do so.
Maybe I should point out here that sometimes I do go out of my way to pay for media (especially games) when I don’t have to. I bought Dwarf Fortress on Steam, even though the devs give it away for free and I donated to them a couple times before they released it on Steam. They are living off the money people pay for Dwarf Fortress and I’m so glad they’re able to do so. I also bought my sister a copy of Pathologic 2 she has never (and probably will never) play because I bought my copy on sale and loved it and felt bad that I hadn’t paid full price to a dev team that put their heart and soul into the game and had it sell abysmally for some reason. (Side note, play Pathologic 2, it’s good!) I bought the Celeste soundtrack from Lena Raine’s bandcamp because I love it so much, even though it’s extremely easy to find and I’ve actually lost access to my bandcamp account.
I guess I’m saying there’s nuance here and I like it when actual artists who make good art are paid. It’s just that in our current society, buying a DVD or paying for Netflix or paying for Xbox gamepass or anything like that doesn’t benefit the artists, the vast majority of any money you spend to acquire media goes straight to wealthy executives and I just don’t see anything wrong with not giving them more money than they’re already getting.
I think you’d still get some big budget projects from publicly funded art grants and crowdfunding. In a society where IP and patents either don’t exist or are much less restrictive, a lot of code and assets will be freed up to reuse when you make your “new” game, lowering the barrier to entry.
I expect we would see more things like doctor who; low budget, thousands and thousands of episodes because it’s beloved by millions of people who keep demanding more.
Yeah, good point! In a world without intellectual property rights, of course there would still be large projects, they’d just be, well, actually good and not shitty focus-grouped sequels.
While your claim is true—big budget movies, etc., need someone to pay for them—the unspoken corollary you’re implying isn’t true—that without the current economic model, no-one would pay for big budget productions, or that undermining the current model via piracy will reduce the rate at which they are funded.
The current model is: massive corporate copyright-holders can purchase the right the profit from an artistic production. They pay for its production up front. Even though we have a technology that can costlessly copy these products and very cheaply distribute them to almost everyone who wants them, the copyright holders maximise their profits by a) crippling this capacity by spend considerable money, labor and human expertise on technologies that artificially limit copying, and b) use state-supported coercion (e.g., fines, lawsuits, police, etc), to punish individuals who would circumvent these crippling technologies. To be clear, these copyright holders still make massive profits, vastly beyond what any individual they are persecuting for copyright infringement could ever dream of. Their policing of piracy is to make even greater profits.
Even though this is how big artistic productions are funded today, it is not true that in the absence of this economic model, big artistic productions would not be funded. The demand for these products would still exist, and if there’s one thing our society excels at, it’s directing capital to meet demand.
Alternative models that could fund big artistic productions:
- a centralised fund we all contribute to in proportion to our means (e.g., progressive taxation), that pays artists in proportion to how much their product is consumed (like the Spotify model, but publically administered, like TV licences)
- many small scale investors rather than corporate monoliths (like Kickstarter), whose investments are recouped by a) privileged access to get product and b) the still highly profitable cinema and dvd markets whose constraints (physical premises/media) are not compatible with free copying.
- a legislated solution that protects copyright until artists are sufficiently recompensed and then allows free distribution.
These are just some examples of the many possible alternative models for funding large art projects and deciding who should profit from them and how much. However the details aren’t nearly as important (many different models could work), as the ultimate driver: whether our actions/systems/laws enhance or undermine demand for the art.
Piracy does undermine the current (corrupt, exploitative, reprehensible) economic model but it also increases demand for the media it distributes more widely and equitably. It doesn’t, as you imply, reduce the likelihood of big budget media existing in the future, it increases the likelihood of it existing in a more fair and equitable way, that harness our ability to freely copy rather than crippling it for the benefit of the ultra-wealthy copyright-buyers.
I stand by what I said: if everyone pirated, no one would be making or funding big-budget movies because there would be no money to be made. Coming up with alternative payment systems for the media we consume is all well and good, but that’s not piracy - it actually just reinforces my point about paying being the moral thing to do. My argument isn’t that the current system is good; it’s that piracy wouldn’t be sustainable if everyone started doing it.
If everyone were doing it, it wouldn’t be piracy. It would be free, legal copying.
I just presented you with several models of how big budget movies could make money, even if everyone were freely, legally copying. You haven’t responded to that argument, you’ve merely ignored it and insisted on your original point.
There is another model proposed at the end of the 90s by a french professor.
Just tax my internet (it’s actually alrrady taxed) and monitor torrent / p2p shares (like it’s already being done). Then pay a proportion of the money gathered via taxes to the creators of the media. It’s a system that is already in place for some Television companies in Europe. Today, I would compare it to spotify. You still get the capitalist model where big budget peoductions make tons of money, but you live in a world where you are free to share and remix
piracy is moral and should be encouraged actually
Eating animals is much worse than piracy. The livestock industry is far more destructive.
The point was that both are morally wrong and I still keep doing it.
Right, but pirating Disney-owned IP is more moral than paying for it. Disney is the number 1 company in the world for lobbying for copyright over-reach. Every dollar that goes to Disney pays for lobbyists who will continue to push for life-of-author + 90+ years, because life-of-author plus 70 years just isn’t enough time to control our shared cultural heritage.
Similarly for Nintendo and software piracy.
Paying for Disney/Nintendo media is immoral.
