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I would have thought that Berlin’s police overreach might have been dealt with sometime since the last world war, but I guess I was just hopeful.
The criminalisation of the slogan “from the river to the sea” in Germany is absolutely ludicrous and shameful.
Your mom is ludicrous and shameful!
I totally can understand why some people see this as a call for the elimination of Israel and the murdering or deportation of all jews that live there. You might disagree, but: Many people view that slogan like this and they have their reasons. And it really is stupid from the protestors to run around during a massive police presence shouting that. It’s totally obvious that nothing will we gained by that. Peace in the middle east will not come because you shouted that slogan in the streets of Berlin. Palestinians and Israelis won’t start a dialogue and become friends.
That’s such an absurd framing. There exist already countless fantastic initiatives for promoting dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians. Dialogue at the civil society level has been going on forever. There is nowhere near a lack of dialogue. The problem is not that Palestinians and Israelis haven’t started a dialogue, the problem is that Israel is occupying, discriminating, colonizing, brutalizing, murdering, stealing land and ethnically cleansing as a matter of state policy.
It is in this backdrop that good dialogue initiatives are being also delegitimized and stigmatized. On the ground in Palestine but also in the West. In Germany things are so absurd that Israeli Jews and non Israeli Jews who speak out against this madness are being stigmatized as …“antisemitic”.
And in this background you have a national liberation slogan of the oppressed side being maliciously misinterpreted in the worst possible bad faith way. Effectively it forces the discussion to be first and foremost about Israeli comfort, and everything else being secondary. It is absolutely a ludicrous and shameful framing of the whole discourse.
I really am surprised at your comment. I do remember how the current war started and that was not by Israel doing anything, but by a massive terror attack that killed over 1000 Israelis. That Hamas attack had the clear goal to kill as many Israelis as possible. They went through whole towns and killed or kidnapped everyone. In that context you can’t use a slogan that is in the Hamas charta, that was used by Hamas in the past and is still used by Hamas and post "oh no, it has nothing to do with those terrorists, it is just a “national liberation slogan of the opressed side”. No, it is a slogan used by fucking terrorists and yes, if you are using it, people will notice it and think that you are promoting the goals of this terror group. If you really want peace, just use different slogans that can’t be misunderstood as trying to murder all jews in Israel and you’re fine. Maybe also try to distance yourself from extremists while advocating for peace, it really is helpful
Why does Hamas get to decide what the slogan means? Psychos in the US are using the punisher logo, does that mean that Marvel is promoting what they do?
Part of freedom is to not relent when you are being told to shut up, to change your message, to obey. If you are fighting for the freedom of oppressed people and the cessation of violence against innocents, and the people hearing you say “stop saying that, say something else”, you don’t obey, you say it harder until they listen to what you’re actually, clearly stating: all people deserve freedom and a life without violence.
Yes, it totally does work like that. The punisher logo is tainted, esp. because psychos in the USA are using it. The swastika is not the good luck symbol it was before the nazis started using it. Nordic runes are awesome, but if you tattoo runes on yourself, people will think that you are a neonazi. That sucks, but the world really does work like that.
And I have to disagree with you: The “from the river to the sea” slogan can and will bei misunderstood or maybe it does exactly what people are thinking: Advocating a violent destruction of Israel and a deportation or murdering of its citizen. I do not know, but seriously, if you want to advocate for “freedom and a life without violence”, maybe use a slogan that can’t be misunderstood as advocating for murdering people? It’s easy.
I’d say symbols are a constant negotiation between meanings. The swastika is lost, but other symbols like Nordic runes are only fully lost if we surrender them. We must fight to insist on the meaning of the symbols not yet lost to evil.
“From the river to the sea; Palestine will be free.” This is the slogan I hear. I hear no violence in these words, only a call for freedom for all Palestinians in what used to be Palestine. I can’t help but think that the misunderstanding of this slogan is willful.
If this slogan is surrendered to evil, how long before the accusations start against the next slogan? Is waving a Palestinian flag the same as condoning terrorism? Is saying the word “genocide” an act of aggression against Israel? Shouldn’t we defend that when we call for freedom, we mean that and just that? And refuse those who would make such a simple call for freedom illegal and associated with evil?
We can be part of controlling the meaning of these things, not only evil can do that.
Do you really think I need a lesson as to what crimes the Hamas fuckheads did on September 7th 2023? Save me the fucking lecture.
But let me check you on something, because I’m really fucking tired with the arbitrary Start of History on September 7th, as if nothing happened before.
The war did not start on September 7th 2023, because there was no peace on September 6th 2023.
There was a ceasefire, that Hamas broke.
There was also a ceasefire was in place between the 19th of January and the 17th of March this year. A ceasfire that was broken by an Israeli surprise attack that killed over 800 Palestinians.
So if we apply YOUR standard to the “start of war”, then THIS war started on March 18th 2025 BY ISRAEL.
You want peace? MUZZLE THE FUCKING ISRAELI FASCISTS.
When we agree that Hamas are fuckheads, then let’s agree that we should not use their slogans to advocate for peace. Use something else that can’t be misunderstood for propagating violence and then let’s stop this totally insane infighting everywhere and try to find a way to a peaceful solution, which gives both Palestinians and Israelis the chance to live in peace and prosperity.
You keep saying it’s Hamas’ slogan. It isn’t. It’s a PLO slogan. Hamas use it, sure, but like other Islamists, they much prefer “min il-ṃayye la-l-ṃayye / Falasṭīn ʿarabiyye” and “min il-ṃayye la-l-ṃayye / Falasṭīn ʾislāmiyy”. Not “free”, but “Arabic” and “Islamic”.
It’s also a rhetorical inversion of a Likud slogan. From their 1977 charter. And Netanyahu has been using it quite recently and his right wing allies have also been using it. Did you hear any pearl clutching when that happened?
So what is going on is that the perpetrators of ethnic cleansing are using it, but you’re getting you knickers in a twist when the victims of ethnic cleansing try to reclaim it.
Is you really want a peaceful solution start seeing the truth, that Israel is an anti-democratic Apartheid regime enforcing a brutal occupation, colonization and ethnic cleansing on the Palestinians, with full immunity and support from Western governments. Without a profound change in Israel, of the type that South Africa underwent, there will be no peace.
Edit: since we’re on Feddit, sorry I should also mention: “with equal rights for all, especially Jews”. Like especially and particularly. All other people, are just in the “for all” category but feddit wants Jews in an especially and particularly category. Not antisemitic that policy at all.
What makes you think so?
How do you see that slogan in the context of Israel’s existence, given the (potential) relation mentioned in the article?
Yeah, it’s really shameful to lament a genocide while advocating for a genocide… but your propaganda-induced brain damage causes impressive cognitive dissonance.
The only way to understand the slogan as a call for genocide is if you have accepted the premise that “a Free Palestine Must Necessarily Mean The Extermination Of Jews”. And that is a profoundly fucked up thing to say.
if you have accepted the premise that “a Free Palestine Must Necessarily Mean The Extermination Of Jews”
Yes, a free Palestine ranging “from the river to the sea” while at the very same time -just like Israel- staunchly rejecting the idea of a two-state solution is exactly that.
Out of the two insane and genocidal sides of that conflict none can claim moral superiority.
(For reference: see §2 of the Hamas charter that clearly defines the borders of their “free Palestine” that covers 100% of Israel, West Bank and Gaza…)
How does reinstate Palestinian land for displaced Palestinians equate to an exterminate jews though? I don’t doubt that Hamas has that view but the those words alone does not mean that.
You could argue it’s a dog whistle for antisemitism, but historically there has been many different groups with visions for what a one-state solution could look like.
Israel is helping settlers settle in Palestinian territories, forcefully pushing way Palestinian and destroying their homes withe help of the Israeli military.
You are still trying to justify Palestinian calls for a genocide with Israel’s genocidal actions.
So I will repeat again:
Out of the two insane and genocidal sides of that conflict none can claim moral superiority.
No they are fucking not. That’s your bad faith twisting of their writing. You’re not discussing in good faith.
And also THERE ARE NO JUST 2 SIDES HERE. THERE ARE 3 SIDES. THE INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNISED PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY EXISTS AND THE ISRAELIS ARE DOING EVERYTHING TO DELEGITIMIZE IT.
I do not justify genocide. Palestinians don’t call for genocide as doesn’t Israelis. Some or many might. Israel as a state are currently committing genocide on a people that they’ve displaced historically and continue to displace. Hamas might be calling for genocide too but Hamas is not the state of Palestine.
A Free Ireland did not mean a genocide of Protestants. A Free South Africa did not mean a genocide of Afrikaners. A Free Ukraine does not mean a genocide of Russians.
A Free Palestine does not have to mean a genocide of Israelis.
If you have given up on humanity, or if you somehow believe that Arabs are incapable of universalism, that’s nothing but a failure of your own moral ambition.
PS. Palestine is not Hamas. There is an internationally recognized Palestinian Authority that has actually recognized the 2 State Solution, that IS a potential partner for peace for Israel, that DOES do its best to manage extremism in the areas it controls. The same Palestinian Authority is being ratfucked over every step of the way by Israel. Undermined, delegitimized, made to look ineffective, ignored, silenced, provoked. Its lands being colonized, its people brutalized, its economy stifled, its resources stolen, its contiguity fractured, even its olive fucking trees cut. Every step of the way. Israeli settlers bullying, killing, rioting, and the Israeli army protecting them, the Israeli courts rubber stamping their crimes. If you’re looking for a sane party to the conflict, look at the PA. Because this is what Palestine without Hamas looks like.
A Free Ukraine does not mean a genocide of Russians.
Because it’s not a free Ukraine that insists on covering 100% of Russia’s territory.
Palestine is not Hamas. There is an internationally recognized Palestinian Authority that has actually recognized the 2 State Solution.
The last election was held 19 years ago. Hamas clearly won with 76 out of 132 seats. Pretending that the Palestinian Authority is somehow speaking for Palestinians because they say the stuff you want to hear is rediculous wishful thinking.
The same Palestinian Authority is being ratfucked over every step of the way by Israel. Undermined, delegitimized, made to look ineffective, ignored, silenced
You don’t need to delegitimize people on year 19 of a 4 year term where they actually lost…
About 30% of the people in Ukraine have Russian add their native language, that’s what I meant. Putin has used then as an excuse to take territory.
Part of the ratfucking is precisely destroying the capacity of a society to function as a democracy. Create a situation of constant anomaly in which elections cannot meaningfully take place. Them criticize whoever is trying to do anything moderate as illegitimate. All the while you keep using these excuses to push through a radical expansion of settlements. How can you have free elections under apartheid? Saying otherwise is either ignorance or hypocrisy.
Holy fuck feddit.org is filled with hasbara drones 😂
According to the police, one officer was dragged into the crowd, forced to the ground and trampled on. The 36-year-old reportedly suffered severe injuries to his upper body, including a broken arm, and remains in the hospital.
Just your friendly neighbourhood demonstration. Nothing to see here, move along.
Armed gang of men show up to a peaceful protest to commit violence and are surprised when they are retaliated against. Gtfo
The police could learn to keep their distance and stop instigating violence. If you push people they’ll push back. If you’re armed expect them to not give you a chance to use your weapon.
The lesson here is let people do their peaceful protesting and you won’t necessitate violence.
This isn’t a right-wing protest, this crowd doesn’t want violence, it wants to be heard. This crowd is willing to use violence to ensure it’s right to be heard is preserved.
Until I can see some evidence that the unarmed crowd instigated violence against the armed police I’m going to consider the armed police to be the instigators since they showed up armed and then approached a crowd of people who were voicing their opinion.
“The police could learn to keep their distance…” that is not how it works in Germany. The police has the force monopoly. You do what the police says or you get in trouble. They are fair (most of the time, I experienced 2 or 3 exceptions myself throughout my life). Most of the time you will get another chance.
I was also on protests and demos myself. They are not doing anything to the crowd except something is going wrong, like: Demonstrants not taking the pathway they should be taking like planned.
“not how it works in Germany” we ain’t talking laws, we talking morality. We are talking how things should be. Laws are irrelevant to morality and if that’s your argument then you are lost.
Just look for “police violence palestine protests berlin” and you will find countless of videos of cops beating up people for no reason, using excessive force, beating up people already on the ground and in custody, choking people unconcious. There was a small outcry about a year ago when videos emerged of cops randomly shoving a women outside any group of people to the fround and another video of a cop throwing a women around by her neck, a move that could have easily broke her neck and killed her.
Also the police is notorious for lying about attacks on officers, so the claim he would have been “dragged into the crowd” should be taken with a big grain of salt, unless there is video evidence of it. I think it is more probable that he fell over when the police stormed in and his colleagues retreated. And well when you keep punching, kicking, body slamming and choking people, there could come a point when they loose their cool.
For demonstrations in Berlin police has been looking to escalate violence to discredit protests at every possibility over the past years. Human rights and civil rights organizations are criticising increasing repressions against demonstrations especially increasing police violence. Aside from protests for the rights of Palestinians climate protests are particular targets. Berlins police uses violence against women and minors in particular because they know it is a reliable way to escalate violence.
On thursday Berlins police already banned the demonstration from moving at all. Police came with two water throwers and 600 officers to begin with. They were out for blood.
Some scences from thursday and other prtests over the past year and a half. Note that his is not even the tip of the iceberg.
https://youtube.com/shorts/h_gjZdx4MqU
https://youtube.com/shorts/wDFKlXoqeXg
https://youtube.com/watch?v=c6Jlj8shfVM
https://youtube.com/shorts/s0q0zd8t5fo
https://youtube.com/watch?v=exRIsj73QUQTo add to that. This is not a Gaza-Israel problem, but a Berlin police being especially violent against any sort of left leaning protest. They were extremely hard on climate protest before that. Part of that being a lawful conviction for using a pain grip.
Ah, playing the victim role? I know that one from Palestinian protesters already. Show me something new.
You’re losing
Go to hell Zionist trash.
That less victim-y for you?
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And it doesn’t have to be a protest for Palestinians for police to use excessive force, just look up how they treated stuttgart 21 protesters
nice tightly edited clips with no context
as you know a lot of standard palestinian chants are regarded as racist and illegal in germany that compels the police to act
Compels them to smack women to the ground? Compels them to beat people square in the face with heavy gloves?
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You changed your wording from compelled to allowed. Are they compelled to do this?
Already retreating your wording and moving the goalposts. I see you though.
Probably another right-wing troll.
i am compelled to answer you and allowed to call you a fool
Just so you’re aware, in case you don’t understand, you don’t have to do everything you’re allowed to do. In fact, often you shouldn’t, especially if you’re a cop. Cops should try to keep peaceful and calm situations down, and protect people from harm. Just because they’re allowed to cause harm instead and increase tensions doesn’t mean they should.
Does the arrest need to be legitimate or is it enough for police to want to arrest someone for no reason and then beat down everyone who isnt jumping to the side right away? I am asking because often many more arrests are made than people being charged after. And then charges often get thrown out in court.
How did shoving that women from the back relate to any arrest when she was clearly away from other protestors? If the goal was to arrest her, there were plenty of cops arround who could have surrounded her and arrested her without violence. Or beating the shit out of the teenage boy who tried to defuse between the men and the cop?
post the full video with the full context and we’ll find out
ah yes the classic “you made me repeatedly punch you in the face because I was afraid in my full body riot armor” - good to know the brave solders defending a genocide have loyal supporters on lemmy as well 🫶
Good “centrist” Germans and bootlicking, name a more classic combo
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Germany: always the forefront of systemic fascism.
Have you even read the article?
The article only represents the official narrative by the police, who are known to lie and misrepresent events. Police violence against demonstrations in Berlin especially demonstrations for the rights of Palestinians, but also climate protests is a daily occurence. Police is deliberately escalating violence to suppress protests. See two german languaged articles, one for thursday and one for the larger problem:
https://taz.de/Nakba-Tag-in-Berlin/!6088163/
https://taz.de/Polizeigewalt-auf-Palaestina-Demos/!6029454/If police violence would be reported on accurately and not only when the videos and outrage became too large in a few incidents, the “bürgerliche Mitte” would be shocked to see how democratic their “centrists” parties actually are. So the center and right media tries to avoid reporting on things or well just parrots the police.
I did a quick tour through YouTube and, well, I think that this is a case of “both sides”. The protestors are really agressive and violent, too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwh0-d4-b0A
I really do not understand what they want to gain by staging a protest like this. They are really not getting their message out to anyone. No bystander will go there and talk to them and inform themselves about their causes (which kind of is the point of a demonstration) when there is a big aggressive mob around. I’m going to lots of demonstrations and know that the police and esp. our Bereitschaftspolizei are too aggressive and sometimes pointlessly violent. But if I saw what was happening there, I would have left immediately. Nothing is gained by such pointless fighting and this only hurts the cause. You do not win any sympathies here by protesting so violently.
Maybe they are outraged that there is a fucking genocide happening while the German state directly and indirectly supports it and they want to express their outrage. Could be that, right?
There is no “both sides” here when the playing field is so uneven. As a protestor, just showing up in a simple motorcycle helmet would be a crime - nevermind the full body armor the cops are wearing.
Where do you see protestors initiating violence?
Because when the police starts storming in, you either can try to fight back or get run over and beaten up.
As i explained police seeks to rscalate violence to discredit protests. Also leaving can be difficult when you are surrounded by police and leaving by yourself makes you easy prey for police. This is why at every demo there is a reminder to arrive and leave in groups.
What makes you think so?
