I went home with a lady friend, who invited me into her bed, then said that we’re not going to do anything. So, I didn’t even try, and we just talked and cuddled. FF to two years later, and we start dating, and she questioned why I didn’t try anything that night. Like, duh. A lady says no, it means no. That is what I’ve had drilled into me as a male since I was a very young age. I’m so damn scared of being called for sexual harassment.
You did the right thing. She fumbled you.
You did the right thing. I helped a lady friend move out from her husband’s when they split. She didn’t want to stay in a new apartment all alone, so I offered to spend the night on her couch. Well come time to bed down, she wanted me in her bed. Then she wanted to snuggle. Then she started rubbing her backside against my front.
Well I read the signs and we had sex. It was fine. Wind up dating for a bit. Like 3 weeks later we were talking about something and she lays on me, “I never said we could have sex so technically you raped me.”
You do not fucking accuse someone of technically rape as playful banter. Things went awkward and downhill after that. Not solely because of that. She was not ready for a relationship that soon after splitting from her husband, but I was young and horny and too inexperienced to possess the level of maturity necessary to understand that.
Anyway, maybe if I had made sure to give her more time it would’ve gone better. Probably not. But I damn sure wouldn’t have gotten accused of rape.
Technically she raped you too…
I’m not that technical. I was trying really hard to be a good guy but I definitely wanted to fuck her. That whole façade of maturity crumbled at my first opportunity.
It was all bullshit, technically and otherwise. But there’s something about a woman looking at you and saying you raped her that undoes you. There was probably a time in my life after that when I was in danger of going full incel. But I didn’t and here we are. We were both young and dumb and I’m sure she could never have known how deeply that cut.
Yeah… Puuh. That’s not a normal thing to say. If it’s dark humor, and said with irony, it might be perfectly fine, and even funny. Because then, they don’t actually mean it. But, if they do mean it? Sheesh. You dodged a poison leaded bullet.
I’m so damn scared of being called for sexual harassment.
So, you aren’t worried about sexually assaulting somebody? You’re just worried about being caught?
They clearly said they didn’t sexually assault her
And they clearly said the reason why they didn’t do it was because they didn’t want to be “called for sexual harassment”. Not because they respect women and consent, but because they didn’t want to be caught.
Dude you’re being purposefully obtuse and pedantic. It’s super lame. Nobody enjoys a conversation with someone who purposefully misunderstands you then starts arguing about it.
Oh fuck off, you not only knew what they meant, you’re being awfully dismissive of what even a claim of sexual assault can do to a person.
you’re being awfully dismissive of what even a claim of sexual assault can do to a person.
What do you think being sexually assaulted can do to a person?
I’m so damn scared of being called for sexual harassment.
OK, if all you people over there are like this, and you still do have functional relationships, maybe I’m really just unlikable and don’t constantly fail at reading the signs.
Or somehow only likable for the particular kind of women who communicate with signs only. There definitely, confidently were such cases, but!
Really hard to believe it’s a cultural thing.
I’m very curious how that conversation continued after you said no means no.
She was surprised at my answer, because it wasn’t what other guys would have done. I guess ultimately she respected it because we dated for a few years.
“I’m disappointed that other women have ruined my fetish of being harassed” - toxic feminism enjoyer.
I call that respecting a woman’s decision. If OOP wants to play silly games then the correct answer is “Maybe”.
There’s a vast difference between a straight up no and opening a dialogue.
If I ask a girl out and she says sorry I have a boyfriend or sorry you’re not my type or no thank you I’m just going to move on.
It’s no skin off my back, thank you for letting me know before I waste of my time.
I just wish I had this same level of confidence in my teenage years as I do now.
Like you miss all of the shots that you don’t take and I missed so many fucking shots.
I even had one girl laying on the bed next to me telling me about how she’s had sex before and would like to try having sex again and I was like “well good luck with that, I mean, you’re really pretty so you’re probably not going to have any problems”
Oof
“No means no” means “no means no.” You don’t get to have it both ways!
Look, lady, we went through decades of the women’s lib movement to finally get guys to respect your wishes and quit harassing you with unwanted advances. But now you expect us to be clairvoyant or some shit when you say “no” but don’t really mean it?!
Fuck that! You get respected whether you like it or not.
If I had a dollar for every girl that found me unattractive, girls would find me attractive.
Yeah lady, that’s a good thing. Not only for safety, but because normal people don’t like stupid head games or trying to guess “is she playing hard to get?”
Plus it seems to me that if somebody plays hard to get to stroke their ego about how desired they are, they are much more likely to end up with a partner that’s an overconfident or pushy asshole and might not be the most fun to share a life with.
That’s not an absolute rule of course. I’m sure it works for plenty of couples where the chase was fun and flirtatious. But that crap is not for me and thank goodness I’ve been married to a good person for a long-ass time.
I have occasionally thought that a woman might be looking for more pushback when they say no, but then I realize that’s insane. I have to believe people when they say no because the alternative is a nightmare, and also I don’t want to be with someone who doesn’t say what they mean.
I don’t want to be with someone who doesn’t say what they mean.
That’s my point of view. I got enough BS going on with my life. I don’t want to spend time talking to a partner that won’t say what they mean.
My daughter is almost 5 and I’ve made a conscious effort to stop doing whatever I’m doing if she says stop or no.
For example, tickling. If I’m tickling and she says stop, I stop immediately with no back talk.
Or if I’m copying her in a joking way (we both do it to each other from time to time) and she says stop, that’s it. We’re done.
When I’m snuggling with her after reading books before bed, she feels comfortable enough to say, “you can go now” and I that’s it. I leave with no complaints.
In non-safety situations I ask if I can hold her hand. If she says no, that’s it, I’m not holding her hand. Parking lots are a different matter.
I will continue this throughout her entire upbringing so that if (ok, when) someone continues to do something she has said stop or no to, it will be unambiguously wrong to her.
Later when I explain that “no” is a complete sentence, it should feel intuitive.
I’m really trying to do this with my daughter too - she’s 7 and it’s getting hard at times because she’s wanting space, but I’ll give her that as she wants it. Unless it is safety related of course…
We’ve been doing this with our kids; and when they say “no” and someone doesn’t stop, you better believe they say something about it!
Similarly, we’ve been getting consent before the doctor checks any underwear space. No pushback from any doctors or nurses for that either.
I think that you probably need to make some exceptions for doctors, etc., since children will say ‘no’ to things that they actually need, like vaccines, or dental work.
The older one just had a dental appointment today, and was uncomfortable with some of the procedures. My wife talked him through things along with the hygenist, and for a few things she took a different approach he was more comfortable with.
With vaccine reluctance, we generally go straight to bribes. We treat ourselves after doing something like that anyway, so why not them?
So far, we haven’t had any issues yet!
Screw the haters. This is awesome. Keep it up.
My only concern with this is that she might get the impression that people will do whatever she asks, but there’s a ton of context missing which likely demonstrates those concepts to her.
My only suggestion is to make it clear that if she says no, or stop, and someone doesn’t stop, do something about that. I’m sure that will be a discussion later. She sounds young enough for it to not be very important right now.
I appreciate this.
I don’t have kids and I’m just some guy on the internet, but I appreciate you nonetheless.
I’m sure she’ll learn in other ways that people won’t always respect when she says no. But she’s learning what should be normal from her parents
Boy is she in for a ride awakening when she goes out into the world. Kids like yours don’t fare well when their world view gets shattered the first time.
Why are you so feckin upset about a kid being taught to say no
Children are, at some point, going to learn that the world is an awful place. This is inevitable. But it will go much better for them if, like in the example you’re responding to, they’ve been equipped with the tools required to navigate that awfulness.
What would you prefer? That they teach their child never to exercise any autonomy over their own body? How is that preferable?
You’re a moron and I’m sorry for your failed upbringing.
Bet you are the “No means yes” type of guy
Would you rather op ignore their daughter’s “no” so the first time a random man ignores it, it’s normal to her?
You must have missed this part:
I will continue this throughout her entire upbringing so that if (ok, when) someone continues to do something she has said stop or no to, it will be unambiguously wrong to her.
It should feel wrong to her. That’s the point. And there will be explanations later that not everyone respects the first “stop” or “no” and that she should do something about those people.
She will learn about guns and I will offer to help her get a license to carry. I’m afraid those that would not respect her “stop” or “no” will be the ones getting their world view shattered.
It’s kind of strange that you seem to believe I won’t be able to explain this…
I’ve already had to explain that she can completely ignore people, including adults, who say things like, “god will punish you” and she’s not even 5 yet.
I think they do much better because they understand they are allowed to set boundaries and expect people to respect those. That’s actually really healthy. IDK what the hell kind of weird scenarios you are imagining.
I mean isn’t that most kids though? First time or in the world no matter how you do it is a shock.
What OP is doing is just the first steps to what I’m guessing is going to be a continuing education about how is ok to say no and should be respected. It isn’t the end of the road for the conversation about no
This is so sweet and awesome it made my morning
Some advice my parents gave me is: Theres two answers: yes, and everything else
An example of this with me and my gf is that this being my first relationship I am wanting to take this REALLY slow and she respects this. But anyways I don’t remember what she asked it was something pretty tame but I said “maybe” and she responded with “that wasn’t a no but it wasn’t an enthusiastic yes either”
Playing hard to get is a big fucking red flag. It shows a lack of maturity and a lack of truthfulness. It also shows a willingness to be deceitful to your partner.
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“playing hard to get” is a female fantasy, not a male one. She likes the idea that she’s so HIIIIIIIIIEYEIIIIGH, high above me, she’s so lovely that I’m willing to throw my family in a canyon to prove my worth to her. Boosts her delusions of grandeur.
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There is a certain kind of men who do enjoy the chase. They call themselves “pickup artists.” Normal men are either looking for something casual or something long term, and in both cases they’re interested in finding a woman who is also looking for similar terms and don’t really want that chore maximized or complicated beyond what it already is.
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Women do not know how to play hard to get. They implement “hard to get” as “flatly refuse.” I think a separate hatred of expressing consent is why they don’t say something like “You’ll have to do better than that.”
Have you ever been inside a sex club?
If you spend even 20 minutes in a sex club, you can watch and see numerous examples of how you’re wrong. It might help you understand the sexual behavior and cues of women.
Sex clubs?? What? No. Most people people learn in normal ways. Also “the sexual behavior and cues of women” is such a creepy way to put that
Sex clubs are normal. They are legal venues where you can watch people interact. Given that it’s a sex club, the interactions are usually sexual. You’d be able to see women doing things like saying no clearly and not minding that at all - that’s actually part of the culture of sex clubs and sex positive spaces.
I don’t think it’s creepy and I’m a woman. What verbiage would you prefer, since you’re a man who needs to police how women talk about other women. Tell me what would help you not feel like a victim when I discuss watching women at a sex club, who are there ostensibly to be watched in the first place.
I think it’s more that you’re scared of rejection and women having choices. You’re too much of a coward to even try to go to one and just see. You watch porn right? But irl, that’s too intimate and you might start seeing these women as people. Can’t have that.
The person you unloaded that reply on wasn’t even the one you originally replied to. Are you okay?
Before you get too affronted by my maybe not super politic words below, understand that you should imagine me in chaps, a chest harness, and a bull horns headpiece if it’s the Halloween Munch, vibing.
A sex club is to advanced empathy as differential equations are to little Timmy’s arithmetic problem, do you not realize this?
It’s a firehouse turned upon hearing someone say their mouth is a mite dry. It’s just the reality: They’re literally categorized as ‘non-mainstream’ spaces precisely because they do not easily fit the currently mainstream view on sexuality or mores, pretty much nowhere.
Not to mention, not the environment to throw in those you suspect of bigotry or misogyny jeez, they’re supposed to be spaces kept clear of that sort of baggage and drama so their purpose can remain clear, consensual, and to the point.
No organizer is going to host a “gawk at our ladies react, learn our etiquette” event, and if they did, that would only maybe help the sort of folk you’re accusing these people of being mask and pass at the Munch.
Not improve their lives long term in any way. There is a reason why you still have to get to a dedicated space to see the things you mention play out as normally as they do, where they are maximally normalized.
People generally can’t act how they do in there in any other social setting and they’re spaces where the things you learn can only translate to your life in some ways (more compassion, better lover, learn to seek and engended enthusiastic consent, etc) but even that generally requires the person going to be arriving ready to take some learning out.
I don’t care if you’ve been pegged in front of everyone at a sex club, that doesn’t make you the leading authority on them. And you certainly aren’t the leading authority on women’s comfort.
I think sex clubs are a great starter and much better than strip clubs or porn theatres. Sex clubs usually have people from all ages and backgrounds, and often have ice breaker event nights like game night, karaoke, bondage, etc. Sex Clubs and kink, like Lemmy, are full of autistic nerds. So much so that I have noticed my subs who play DnD are genuinely better at roleplay and metadiscussions compared to ones who haven’t played.
Also, his behavior isn’t a risk to others because sex clubs (not Munch) are private clubs with rules that you have to sign to enter, and people monitoring activity. He has to follow the rules which includes consent, and yes they allow new people into sex clubs no problem. Building community is one of the best ways to get someone to change their mindset. There’s plenty of misogyny in those spaces without you blaming me, a woman, for it. Yet again men try to make women responsible for their bullshit. What have you said to the poster to help him deconstruct his toxic masculinity and sex phobia? Or do you only have the energy to be shitty to the only obvious woman here?
Voyeurism is 10000000% allowed at sex clubs and it is what the majority of people there do. Most people do not get busy in front of others. And the people who do are often exhibitionists who like that. That’s literally the point of the sex club.
The reason sex clubs are a dedicated space is so people can consent to seeing sex acts happening and being around sex acts. The entire point is that it is founded in consent for those acts at the start. That is what makes it “alternative” - the consent itself, not the acts taking place per se, which are normal in a bedroom setting. That others consent to see it and treat it as a norm is where it becomes alternative. OP would get a masterclass in consent and how it works in front of his eyes. It would probably benefit him.
You are off your rocker, and dangerous to those you share a play space with, wow. I pray you’re that visibly unhinged where others can be warned before they risk their reputations, sanity, or comfort near you.
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This, right here. Don’t date people who play mindgames. Start a relationship the way you mean for it to continue; with open and honest communication.
Yes, obviously flirting is about dropping hints, and that’s fine, but at the point where the hinting stops and one party says “I’m into you and I hope you’re into me too”, there should be no bullshit. If you like someone you show them the basic respect of saying what you fucking mean.
I mean, I’m more than happy to play along for the sake of having a playful time… but come on… don’t waste weeks of my life
Ain’t nobody got time for that shit.
New green text drop.
–be me high functioning autistic, struggle with social ques.
–begin highschool, theres a cute girl.
–decide to be extra friendly, take every available moment to be beside her and friendly.
– 2 months go by, still doesnt notice my intent. Decided to be blunt.
– tell her i like her, romatically. Says cool and walks away,
– autism engage.mp3
– do the same shit for 2 weeks
– she tells me she want to be friends, I respect her wishs tho saddened.
– walk with her in-between classes like all my other friends.
– she calls me creepy and to stop stalking her. I explain im not stalking im just being a friend and just enjoy talking inbetween class.
– 2 weeks go by, she doesnt say anything about me being “creepy”
– go to B lunch where i sit by myself cause friends have A lunch.
– phone buzz.mp3
– random number of text message with photo of me 20 seconds ago at lunch table.
– panic issues, i message who dis. They reply, you dont need to know stop stalking (girls name). I explain its not stalking if i go up and say hello and talk to them.
– they dont listen, they tell me to stop being creepy. I ask again who this was. No reply…
– i tell them ill get the cops involved if they dont reval themselfs.
– lunch ends, goes to math class. Asks (girl) what she know about random texter.
– (girl) says no clue
– day ends, sleep like shit because of creepy MF.
– finally get response, im (girls friend)
– i sit at lunch table following day with her and ask whats this is about.
– she says (girl) says im a creepy stalker that follows her around and stares at her. And that (girl) asked her to do this. I explain i like talking to her, and she engages back in a mutal conversion. And that im autistic and zone out.
– she still insists im a creep
– confront (girl) in math class “Why did you lie about this, just tell me you dont want to be friends” Girl refuses to talk to me and spreads rumors of me being a creep.
– MFW i dont miss highschool dating.
TLDR- women gaslights autism into stalking and give lasting insecurity issues.
