There are not enough women in the fediverse to maintain femme-centric communities.
Or maybe they rather mask a man / gender neutral. Internet is not a friendly place to have girl oriented conversations. I made the mistake to be open about my gender with this account and the odacity of people is astonishing.
That, unfortunately, is why I will never suggest Lemmy to people and why it will never be a viable option for most. Maybe that will change when the absolute batshit hostility stops, but considering all the communities lost… nah.
I want to say we should start our own instance for feminists and kick anyone that acts like that. But I’m not sure what that would even look like or if it would gain traction.
I think it may be worth a shot to retry. There are trans and furry communities (which are smaller and similarly harassed populations) that seem to be thriving just fine. It’s just important to consider what instance they are formed on. Something like blahaj.zone?
The issue is that women should be free to discuss women’s issues without being harassed. And sometimes those issues include men. That’s when the harassment starts.
Hell, there was an article posted when I first joined about women-only taxi services and I went in to comment my excitement and support! Only to be greeted with some of the most vile comments and insincere, shitty discussion I’d seen in a loooong time.
I’m not ““tough”” enough to moderate my own community that would inevitably put both it & myself as a target of harassment. Not going to risk putting myself through that. I’m stressed enough as it is.
The issue is that women should be free to discuss women’s issues without being harassed. And sometimes those issues include men. That’s when the harassment starts.
Yeah I don’t really know what to do about that. That’s the state of things right now and it is always going to be a fight to move the bar on harassment. It used to be slapped/pinched butts and generally forced servitude.
I’m not ““tough”” enough to moderate my own community that would inevitably put both it & myself as a target of harassment. Not going to risk putting myself through that. I’m stressed enough.
Yeah, ain’t saying it has to be you but it unfortunately has to be someone for the space to exist. I’m not the right person either…but a space is necessary to allow for meaningful discussion and people to see and hear about those experiences and perspectives. I’m saying that because those trans and furry communities exist it should be possible for people to make a feminine space here on lemmy besides femcel memes.
I know for a fact that I’m not the only woman who has gone to say something, then deleted it because that element seems strong here.
I’ll say that of the space on lemmy where I’ve seen women’s issues discussed, the place I’ve felt safest about it is blahaj, but I am not gonna try and coopt their space. They really deserve to have a space somewhere. I’m glad they’ve got one here.
In the meantime, most of the women I’ve run into on lemmy feel uncomfortable making waves in the spaces where those people are, but we tend to skew older, so while it’s sad, at least we’re used to keeping quiet.
E; some pretty gross comments in this thread alone. If those negative and ignorant comments were higher than this one, and I saw them first, I wouldn’t have made this comment either.
We need a safe space, but most of the women I know on here don’t have the time or energy to moderate it. And there’s so few of us, it feels like it’s not worth the effort anyway.
It used to be slapped/pinched butts and generally forced servitude.
I get what you’re saying here, but these statements really minimize the issue.
If a non-white person came here with a concern about hostility in spaces on Lemmy, I sincerely hope the response would not be as dismissive as “yeah, it’s always been a problem. That’s just how it is. Used to be slavery and slurs. You have it so easy on the internet compared to those days!” Not saying it’s a one-to-one comparison to your statement, but it’s an issue that someone doesn’t feel safe talking about their unique experiences in a space that touts itself as progressive.
I see trans folks come here and have been accommodated fantasticly in nearly all communities! It’s so wonderful to see! And I love seeing them talk about issues that often stem from cis folk who simply don’t understand their struggles. Hell, I do not weigh-in opinions in trans communities (other than to give support) because I am not trans, and I do not feel I have the right to insert myself into those discussions.
As far as “be the change you want to see”, I absolutely understand that many folks have the view of “if you don’t have the intention to change things, then stop complaining”, and I get it. I do. But I want to complain in order, at the very least, get this issue noticed.
I understand that I cannot expect others to facilitate change for me, but, as stated before, I am not a person who is mentally strong enough to do so. My wish is for someone with stronger mental fortitude to take the issue seriously and help where I am unable to do so. That’s my wish.
I’m a man, but I’ve been on the internet for a while. It literally always happens. This isn’t a Lemmy issue. It’s an internet issue. I assume it’s because people are mostly anonymous, but anywhere that has men and women, if the thread gets popular enough men will join in. Some of those men will be assholes who make themselves offended by the fact women are discussing men.
As long as you can’t verify accounts are actually women, this issue will persist. There’s not a good solution besides just having good moderators who deal with all the bullshit, but that’s hard to ask from someone for free.
The only choice is probably to make what you want to see, and then hope for the best but prepare for the worst, or accept it’s not going to exist. You can either let them win by letting harassment shut down communities or deal with them. I’m not saying you should force yourself to deal with the harassment though, because I’m sure it’s awful.
That’s a very dismissive statement, and I’m sure that Lemmy isn’t exclusively 14-year olds. Demographicly, it’s populated with grown men who should know better.
I invite you to read the comments on any post mentioning feminism (in a community not specifically about feminism) and tell me if you’d, in good conscience, invite your female friends over here. I love lemmy, but ngl, when it comes to gender issues, this site is a shithole for the most part
Sure, I suppose. And that state of affairs won’t change if more women who might be able to put up some resistance don’t join. Maybe not your 14 year old cousin who’s in the middle of a major depressive episode but it’s not like all women will have a psychotic break when they are confronted with idiots. I can deal with it fine and I’m not exactly a paramount of mental health.
So can I, and that’s why you and I are here. But “come into this space that’s actively hostile and help make it a little bit less so” isn’t exactly a great pitch. The decentralized nature certainly helps, the problem varies drastically from instance to instance
So can I, and that’s why you and I are here. But “come into this space that’s actively hostile and help make it a little bit less so” isn’t exactly a great pitch. The decentralized nature certainly helps, the problem varies drastically from instance to instance
The easiest way is to shut down blatent sexism you see around in posts and comments. I wouldn’t even be aggressive about it. Just a “hey, that’s not cool” and downvote.
Problem is, a lot of folks are “jokingly” sexist, while also only kinda joking? Either way, I think there’s a line, but it’s going to be different for everyone, and I’m definitely not sure that I’m the one who gets to draw it. But when women are seeing openly gross posts about women, it is very off-putting and will cause them to shun a community.
Thanks. That makes total sense. I’m pretty grossed out by most tropes so my tolerance for what’s “just joking” is minimal. I believe I do what you suggest IRL. My 8 yr old son does too. There’s a great Ted talk called feminism is a man’s problem or something that reshaped my perspective many years ago - we have to use our privileges to upstand bc only haves can give power, have nots can’t just manifest it. In any hierarchical dichotomy. I try to make space in work meetings and help people feel comfortable speaking and telling those with the privilege to be comfortable to stfu sometimes. I think the difficult part for some men (I know how those words sound together!) is reconciling wanting to help but not knowing how to ask whether it’s welcome and they fear it’ll be construed as offensive. Perhaps bc society allows boys will be boys, and they’re never taught how to communicate boundaries.
Thank you for making space in meetings. Thank you for all of it, but especially that.
It’s difficult to have faith in your own voice when it’s consistently drowned out - especially in those subtle ways it happens in meetings.
Early in my career, I worked with a man who would consistently refer back to a woman who had been interrupted. He always made it seem organic and I don’t think most of the men even realized it was happening. But the women noticed the pattern. I know I’m not the only woman who learned to be more comfortable advocating for myself, thanks to him.
Thanks for this. And for doing your best for us. And for helping keep your son out of that group.
I’ll add that, as much as it sucks, there seems to be this thing where the kind of men who love attacking women, when confronted with a man saying to stop, will (in person, online it still happens but less so) completely back down. I think it’s because (and I could be completely wrong but this is my theory) most of them are cowards.
Bullies love to attack those they believe are weak. Most of your run-of-the-mill sexist assholes believe all women are weaker than men.
It’s such a shame because so many of the things that harm men are things that women’s rights people also want to help with.
You don’t have am answer, so I’ll tell you what I’ve been told; that all we can do is put ourselves in front of the harassment. If it starts happening, call them out. Yeah, you might catch some shit for it, but it’s not something that normally happens to you or me most likely.
For example, I frequently play a game called Squad. It’s a light mil-Sim, and as you can imagine there are a lot of very annoying misogynistic men. If a woman speaks and people start being annoying, I’ll try to step in and take the heat instead. It’s not a great solution, but the goal is to not let them think everyone is accepting of it, and maybe let the woman (or other higher pitched voice person) just play the game. I’d rather be the target for once instead of the same people always being the target.
Sadly, some men need to hear it from other men that they need to treat women as just people, not as a different thing.
I don’t think women would want you running their women’s community though. That’s something they need to do on their own probably.
There are not enough women in the fediverse to maintain femme-centric communities.
Most of the ones I used to be subscribed to shut down due to being abandoned/unmodded. And they turned out that way because of harassment.
It’s a huge issue that no one will address. Mostly because they will be harassed.
It sucks.
Or maybe they rather mask a man / gender neutral. Internet is not a friendly place to have girl oriented conversations. I made the mistake to be open about my gender with this account and the odacity of people is astonishing.
That’s what I mean.
And it should not be this way.
The fediverse vehemently defends & will happily accommodate trans folk. That’s fantastic! But they’ll be openly hostile to cis women?
It’s baffling.
Makes me think that Lemmy is not actually as progressive as they are always claiming to be.
Wow, I had no idea it was like that here, that’s terrible :(
Yeah… it really is.
That, unfortunately, is why I will never suggest Lemmy to people and why it will never be a viable option for most. Maybe that will change when the absolute batshit hostility stops, but considering all the communities lost… nah.
That’s horrible.
I want to say we should start our own instance for feminists and kick anyone that acts like that. But I’m not sure what that would even look like or if it would gain traction.
I mean, it would probably look kinda similar to blahaj.zone. With a dedicated admin team, I could see it working.
My instance is welcoming to feminists. You’re welcome to create a community on the topic. I will not hesitate to kick out the jerks.
I think it may be worth a shot to retry. There are trans and furry communities (which are smaller and similarly harassed populations) that seem to be thriving just fine. It’s just important to consider what instance they are formed on. Something like blahaj.zone?
The issue is that women should be free to discuss women’s issues without being harassed. And sometimes those issues include men. That’s when the harassment starts.
Hell, there was an article posted when I first joined about women-only taxi services and I went in to comment my excitement and support! Only to be greeted with some of the most vile comments and insincere, shitty discussion I’d seen in a loooong time.
I’m not ““tough”” enough to moderate my own community that would inevitably put both it & myself as a target of harassment. Not going to risk putting myself through that. I’m stressed enough as it is.
Yeah I don’t really know what to do about that. That’s the state of things right now and it is always going to be a fight to move the bar on harassment. It used to be slapped/pinched butts and generally forced servitude.
Yeah, ain’t saying it has to be you but it unfortunately has to be someone for the space to exist. I’m not the right person either…but a space is necessary to allow for meaningful discussion and people to see and hear about those experiences and perspectives. I’m saying that because those trans and furry communities exist it should be possible for people to make a feminine space here on lemmy besides femcel memes.
I know for a fact that I’m not the only woman who has gone to say something, then deleted it because that element seems strong here.
I’ll say that of the space on lemmy where I’ve seen women’s issues discussed, the place I’ve felt safest about it is blahaj, but I am not gonna try and coopt their space. They really deserve to have a space somewhere. I’m glad they’ve got one here.
In the meantime, most of the women I’ve run into on lemmy feel uncomfortable making waves in the spaces where those people are, but we tend to skew older, so while it’s sad, at least we’re used to keeping quiet.
E; some pretty gross comments in this thread alone. If those negative and ignorant comments were higher than this one, and I saw them first, I wouldn’t have made this comment either.
We need a safe space, but most of the women I know on here don’t have the time or energy to moderate it. And there’s so few of us, it feels like it’s not worth the effort anyway.
I think there are more women than you think. They are leaning for good (avoid harassment) or bad( not talk about things) to be quiet as you mention.
I hope things will improve. Hope all the harassers have lives as unpleasant as they deserve.
I get what you’re saying here, but these statements really minimize the issue.
If a non-white person came here with a concern about hostility in spaces on Lemmy, I sincerely hope the response would not be as dismissive as “yeah, it’s always been a problem. That’s just how it is. Used to be slavery and slurs. You have it so easy on the internet compared to those days!” Not saying it’s a one-to-one comparison to your statement, but it’s an issue that someone doesn’t feel safe talking about their unique experiences in a space that touts itself as progressive.
I see trans folks come here and have been accommodated fantasticly in nearly all communities! It’s so wonderful to see! And I love seeing them talk about issues that often stem from cis folk who simply don’t understand their struggles. Hell, I do not weigh-in opinions in trans communities (other than to give support) because I am not trans, and I do not feel I have the right to insert myself into those discussions.
As far as “be the change you want to see”, I absolutely understand that many folks have the view of “if you don’t have the intention to change things, then stop complaining”, and I get it. I do. But I want to complain in order, at the very least, get this issue noticed.
I understand that I cannot expect others to facilitate change for me, but, as stated before, I am not a person who is mentally strong enough to do so. My wish is for someone with stronger mental fortitude to take the issue seriously and help where I am unable to do so. That’s my wish.
I’m a man, but I’ve been on the internet for a while. It literally always happens. This isn’t a Lemmy issue. It’s an internet issue. I assume it’s because people are mostly anonymous, but anywhere that has men and women, if the thread gets popular enough men will join in. Some of those men will be assholes who make themselves offended by the fact women are discussing men.
As long as you can’t verify accounts are actually women, this issue will persist. There’s not a good solution besides just having good moderators who deal with all the bullshit, but that’s hard to ask from someone for free.
The only choice is probably to make what you want to see, and then hope for the best but prepare for the worst, or accept it’s not going to exist. You can either let them win by letting harassment shut down communities or deal with them. I’m not saying you should force yourself to deal with the harassment though, because I’m sure it’s awful.
14 year olds will always roam the internet
That’s a very dismissive statement, and I’m sure that Lemmy isn’t exclusively 14-year olds. Demographicly, it’s populated with grown men who should know better.
“There are no people here so I tell people not to come here.”
Do you see the issue?
That is clearly not why they are telling people not to come here
What is it instead? (And yes obviously what I said is a grotesquely exaggerated version of the situation as I understand it.)
I invite you to read the comments on any post mentioning feminism (in a community not specifically about feminism) and tell me if you’d, in good conscience, invite your female friends over here. I love lemmy, but ngl, when it comes to gender issues, this site is a shithole for the most part
Sure, I suppose. And that state of affairs won’t change if more women who might be able to put up some resistance don’t join. Maybe not your 14 year old cousin who’s in the middle of a major depressive episode but it’s not like all women will have a psychotic break when they are confronted with idiots. I can deal with it fine and I’m not exactly a paramount of mental health.
So can I, and that’s why you and I are here. But “come into this space that’s actively hostile and help make it a little bit less so” isn’t exactly a great pitch. The decentralized nature certainly helps, the problem varies drastically from instance to instance
So can I, and that’s why you and I are here. But “come into this space that’s actively hostile and help make it a little bit less so” isn’t exactly a great pitch. The decentralized nature certainly helps, the problem varies drastically from instance to instance
I’m a dude. Can I help?
Yes. Always.
The easiest way is to shut down blatent sexism you see around in posts and comments. I wouldn’t even be aggressive about it. Just a “hey, that’s not cool” and downvote.
Problem is, a lot of folks are “jokingly” sexist, while also only kinda joking? Either way, I think there’s a line, but it’s going to be different for everyone, and I’m definitely not sure that I’m the one who gets to draw it. But when women are seeing openly gross posts about women, it is very off-putting and will cause them to shun a community.
Thanks. That makes total sense. I’m pretty grossed out by most tropes so my tolerance for what’s “just joking” is minimal. I believe I do what you suggest IRL. My 8 yr old son does too. There’s a great Ted talk called feminism is a man’s problem or something that reshaped my perspective many years ago - we have to use our privileges to upstand bc only haves can give power, have nots can’t just manifest it. In any hierarchical dichotomy. I try to make space in work meetings and help people feel comfortable speaking and telling those with the privilege to be comfortable to stfu sometimes. I think the difficult part for some men (I know how those words sound together!) is reconciling wanting to help but not knowing how to ask whether it’s welcome and they fear it’ll be construed as offensive. Perhaps bc society allows boys will be boys, and they’re never taught how to communicate boundaries.
Thank you for making space in meetings. Thank you for all of it, but especially that.
It’s difficult to have faith in your own voice when it’s consistently drowned out - especially in those subtle ways it happens in meetings.
Early in my career, I worked with a man who would consistently refer back to a woman who had been interrupted. He always made it seem organic and I don’t think most of the men even realized it was happening. But the women noticed the pattern. I know I’m not the only woman who learned to be more comfortable advocating for myself, thanks to him.
Thanks for this. And for doing your best for us. And for helping keep your son out of that group.
I’ll add that, as much as it sucks, there seems to be this thing where the kind of men who love attacking women, when confronted with a man saying to stop, will (in person, online it still happens but less so) completely back down. I think it’s because (and I could be completely wrong but this is my theory) most of them are cowards.
Bullies love to attack those they believe are weak. Most of your run-of-the-mill sexist assholes believe all women are weaker than men.
It’s such a shame because so many of the things that harm men are things that women’s rights people also want to help with.
You don’t have am answer, so I’ll tell you what I’ve been told; that all we can do is put ourselves in front of the harassment. If it starts happening, call them out. Yeah, you might catch some shit for it, but it’s not something that normally happens to you or me most likely.
For example, I frequently play a game called Squad. It’s a light mil-Sim, and as you can imagine there are a lot of very annoying misogynistic men. If a woman speaks and people start being annoying, I’ll try to step in and take the heat instead. It’s not a great solution, but the goal is to not let them think everyone is accepting of it, and maybe let the woman (or other higher pitched voice person) just play the game. I’d rather be the target for once instead of the same people always being the target.
Sadly, some men need to hear it from other men that they need to treat women as just people, not as a different thing.
I don’t think women would want you running their women’s community though. That’s something they need to do on their own probably.
If I may:
While growing up, it can always be opened up for test runs to see if moderation efforts are justified to keep it open permanently.
Main downside: all users members have to be on the same lemmy instance, at least in the beginning.
There’s also a potential problem of my instance not fitting because of I myself am a man.